Georg W.Bush and his legacy (Page 4)

Outbackjack: I also found survivors of another family from the Jolan district. They told me that at the end of the second week of the siege the US troops swept through the Jolan. The Iraqi National Guard used loudspeakers to call on people to get out of the houses carrying white flags, bringing all their belongings with them. They were ordered to gather outside near the Jamah al-Furkan mosque in the centre of town.

On November 12, Eyad Naji Latif and eight members of his family — one of them a six-month-old child — gathered their belongings and walked in single file, as instructed, to the mosque.

When they reached the main road outside the mosque they heard a shout, but they could not understand what was being shouted. Eyad told me it could have been "now" in English. Then the firing began. US soldiers appeared on the roofs of surrounding houses and opened fire. Eyad's father was shot in the heart and his mother in the chest.

They died instantly. Two of Eyad's brothers were also hit, one in the chest and one in the neck. Two of the women were hit, one in the hand and one in the leg. Then the snipers killed the wife of one of Eyad's brothers. When she fell her five-year-old son ran to her and stood over her body. They shot him dead too. Survivors made desperate appeals to the troops to stop firing.

But Eyad told me that whenever one of them tried to raise a white flag they were shot. After several hours he tried to raise his arm with the flag. But they shot him in the arm. Finally he tried to raise his hand. So they shot him in the hand.

The five survivors, including the six-month-old child, lay in the street for seven hours. Then four of them crawled to the nearest home to find shelter. The next morning the brother who was shot in the neck also managed to crawl to safety.

They all stayed in the house for eight days, surviving on roots and one cup of water, which they saved for the baby. On the eighth day they were discovered by some members of the Iraqi National Guard and taken to hospital in Fallujah. They heard the Americans were arresting any young men, so the family fled the hospital and finally obtained treatment in a nearby town.

They do not know in detail what happened to the other families who had gone to the mosque as instructed. But they told me the street was awash with blood. I had come to Fallujah in January as part of a humanitarian aid convoy funded by donations from Britain.

Outbackjack: Our small convoy of trucks and vans brought 15 tons of flour, eight tons of rice, medical aid and 900 pieces of clothing for the orphans. We knew that thousands of refugees were camped in terrible conditions in four camps on the outskirts of town.

There we heard the accounts of families killed in their houses, of wounded people dragged into the streets and run over by tanks, of a container with the bodies of 481 civilians inside, of premeditated murder, looting and acts of savagery and cruelty that beggar belief.

How the U.S. murdered Fallujah:
the truth at last

Doctor Salam Ismael took aid to Fallujah last month. This is a report of his visit.

It was the smell that first hit me, a smell that is difficult to describe, and one that will never leave me. It was the smell of death. Hundreds of corpses were decomposing in the houses, gardens and streets of Fallujah. Bodies were rotting where they had fallen — bodies of men, women and children, many half-eaten by wild dogs. A wave of hate had wiped out two-thirds of the town, destroying houses and mosques, schools and clinics. This was the terrible and frightening power of the US military assault.

The accounts I heard over the next few days will live with me forever. You may think you know what happened in Fallujah. But the truth is worse than you could possibly have imagined.

In Saqlawiya, one of the makeshift refugee camps that surround Fallujah, we found a 17-year-old woman. "I am Hudda Fawzi Salam Issawi from the Jolan district of Fallujah", she told me. "Five of us, including a 55-year-old neighbour, were trapped together in our house in Fallujah when the siege began.

"On 9 November American marines came to our house. My father and the neighbour went to the door to meet them. We were not fighters. We thought we had nothing to fear. I ran into the kitchen to put on my veil, since men were going to enter our house and it would be wrong for them to see me with my hair uncovered. "This saved my life. As my father and neighbour approached the door, the Americans opened fire on them. They died instantly.

"Me and my 13-year-old brother hid in the kitchen behind the fridge. The soldiers came into the house and caught my older sister. They beat her. Then they shot her. But they did not see me. Soon they left, but not before they had destroyed our furniture and stolen the money from my father's pocket."

Hudda told me how she comforted her dying sister by reading verses from the Koran. After four hours her sister died. For three days Hudda and her brother stayed with their murdered relatives. But they were thirsty and had only a few dates to eat. They feared the troops would return and decided to try to flee the city. But they were spotted by a US sniper.

Hudda was shot in the leg, her brother ran but was shot in the back and died instantly. "I prepared myself to die", she told me. "But I was found by an American woman soldier, and she took me to hospital." She was eventually reunited with the surviving members of her family.

I also found survivors of another family from the Jolan district. They told me that at the end of the second week of the siege the US troops swept through the Jolan. The Iraqi National Guard used loudspeakers to call on people to get out of the houses carrying white flags, bringing all their belongings with them. They were ordered to gather outside near the Jamah al-Furkan mosque in the centre of town.

On November 12, Eyad Naji Latif and eight members of his family — one of them a six-month-old child — gathered their belongings and walked in single file, as instructed, to the mosque.

Outbackjack: When they reached the main road outside the mosque they heard a shout, but they could not understand what was being shouted. Eyad told me it could have been "now" in English. Then the firing began. US soldiers appeared on the roofs of surrounding houses and opened fire. Eyad's father was shot in the heart and his mother in the chest.

They died instantly. Two of Eyad's brothers were also hit, one in the chest and one in the neck. Two of the women were hit, one in the hand and one in the leg. Then the snipers killed the wife of one of Eyad's brothers. When she fell her five-year-old son ran to her and stood over her body. They shot him dead too. Survivors made desperate appeals to the troops to stop firing.

But Eyad told me that whenever one of them tried to raise a white flag they were shot. After several hours he tried to raise his arm with the flag. But they shot him in the arm. Finally he tried to raise his hand. So they shot him in the hand.

The five survivors, including the six-month-old child, lay in the street for seven hours. Then four of them crawled to the nearest home to find shelter. The next morning the brother who was shot in the neck also managed to crawl to safety.

They all stayed in the house for eight days, surviving on roots and one cup of water, which they saved for the baby. On the eighth day they were discovered by some members of the Iraqi National Guard and taken to hospital in Fallujah. They heard the Americans were arresting any young men, so the family fled the hospital and finally obtained treatment in a nearby town.

They do not know in detail what happened to the other families who had gone to the mosque as instructed. But they told me the street was awash with blood. I had come to Fallujah in January as part of a humanitarian aid convoy funded by donations from Britain.

Our small convoy of trucks and vans brought 15 tons of flour, eight tons of rice, medical aid and 900 pieces of clothing for the orphans. We knew that thousands of refugees were camped in terrible conditions in four camps on the outskirts of town.

There we heard the accounts of families killed in their houses, of wounded people dragged into the streets and run over by tanks, of a container with the bodies of 481 civilians inside, of premeditated murder, looting and acts of savagery and cruelty that beggar belief.

Through the ruins

That is why we decided to go into Fallujah and investigate. When we entered the town I almost did not recognise the place where I had worked as a doctor in April 2004, during the first siege.

We found people wandering like ghosts through the ruins. Some were looking for the bodies of relatives. Others were trying to recover some of their possessions from destroyed homes.

Here and there, small knots of people were queuing for fuel or food. In one queue some of the survivors were fighting over a blanket.

I remember being approached by an elderly woman, her eyes raw with tears. She grabbed my arm and told me how her house had been hit by a US bomb during an air raid. The ceiling collapsed on her 19-year-old son, cutting off both his legs.

Outbackjack: She could not get help. She could not go into the streets because the Americans had posted snipers on the roofs and were killing anyone who ventured out, even at night.

She tried her best to stop the bleeding, but it was to no avail. She stayed with him, her only son, until he died. He took four hours to die.

Fallujah's main hospital was seized by the US troops in the first days of the siege. The only other clinic, the Hey Nazzal, was hit twice by US missiles. Its medicines and medical equipment were all destroyed. There were no ambulances — the two ambulances that came to help the wounded were shot up and destroyed by US troops.

We visited houses in the Jolan district, a poor working class area in the north western part of the city that had been the centre of resistance during the April siege.

This quarter seemed to have been singled out for punishment during the second siege. We moved from house to house, discovering families dead in their beds, or cut down in living rooms or in the kitchen. House after house had furniture smashed and possessions scattered.

In some places we found bodies of fighters, dressed in black and with ammunition belts.

But in most of the houses, the bodies were of civilians. Many were dressed in housecoats, many of the women were not veiled — meaning there were no men other than family members in the house. There were no weapons, no spent cartridges.

It became clear to us that we were witnessing the aftermath of a massacre, the cold-blooded butchery of helpless and defenseless civilians.

Nobody knows how many died. The occupation forces are now bulldozing the neighbourhoods to cover up their crime. What happened in Fallujah was an act of barbarity. The whole world must be told the truth.

Dr Salam Ismael, now 28 years old, was head of junior doctorsin Baghdad before the invasion of Iraq. He was in Fallujah in April 2004 where he treated casualties of the assault on the city.

At the end of 2004 he came to Britain to collect funds for an aid convoy to Fallujah. Now the British government does not want Dr Salam Ismael's testimony to be heard.

He was due to come to Britain earlier this month to speak at trade union and anti-war meetings. But he was refused entry. The reason given was that he received expenses, covering the basic costs of his trip, when he came to Britain last-year-andthis constitutes "illegal working".

Dr Salam Ismael merely wishes to speak the truth. Yet it seems the freedom that Bush and Blair claim to champion in Iraq does not extend to allowing its citizens to travel freely.

Legal challenges, supported by the Stop the War Coalition, were launched lastweek in an effort to allow Dr Salam Ismael to come to Britain.


Napalm and Fuel-Air Bombs were outlawed under the fourth amendment to the Geneva conventions, 1980. The only country not to sign this was the United states.
I am glad that you except that the use of Napalm is unacceptable.

As for you saying I am dumb and an idiot.You are entirely humourless.

You talk about rock attacks and breaking the law and violating curfew.
I ask you as a soldier what would you do if someone invaded your country and imposed some kind of martial law?
I know I wouldnt sit around and take it while an invading army kicked in the doors of my friends and family and killed them.Would you?

I believe we shouldnt allow our citizens to be killed by the terrorists,you forget that we have had the Bali bombings which killed Australians.But what is the solution?
Going into Iraq and Afgahnistan only inflames the situation and recruits more terrorists.I dont see coalition forces ready to invade Indonesia.
Maybe its because there is little oil and gas there.

franklin1950: did any one see the speaches this week , by president barac obama and past vice president dick channy ?
george bushes legacy depends on who's version of history is accepted .
two diametric opposing views / understanding / conclusions .
the talking heads and the various media coverage is always a lesson in interpitation . l
if words actually mean something ..... then both speaches bear listening to .
make up your own determinations .

FogofWar: "So all these images are of the first Gulf war and you carried extensive research on this?
If you checked the very first image of Fallujah on images you will find that this is attributed to the current conflict and as for what the residents said,under that very photo is this quote:
Fallujah White Phosphorus victim"

Funny, seeing as the camoflauge used in the Gulf War is different than that used in Iraq today; so YES, those photos were from the Gulf War as the uniforms used were replaced a mere 6 years ago. If they were current photos, they would not be wearing those uniforms; among other points. So because someone wrote "Phosphorous victim" makes it true? The photos I saw were not all from the current Iraq mission.

"So all these images are of the first Gulf war and you carried extensive research on this?
If you checked the very first image of Fallujah on images you will find that this is attributed to the current conflict and as for what the residents said,under that very photo is this quote:
Fallujah White Phosphorus victim"

...white phosphorous emits a white smoke, there is no colour to it....how can that be????

"The US military used internationally banned chemical weapons, including nerve gas, during their assault on the Iraqi city of Fallujah last November, Dr Khalid ash Shaykhli, an Iraqi health ministry official, told a March 3 Baghdad press conference."

cough-bullshit-cough. The US did not use chemical weapons. White phosphorous is NOT a chemical weapon. The Hussein regeme, of which many are based out of Fallujah, however, has used nerve gases. We found caches of them during the weapons inspections in 2003.

"You obviously didnt look or you would have seen the first photo."

I ran a google search like you said you did; it posted NO evidence of any of the pictures, and some of them were not even from the current mission...again, the wrong uniforms were worn. See, when you are in the military, you can spot things like that, as you wear those uniforms everyday. They are by no means photos from the current war.

FogofWar: "There is no doubt that Fallujah was a hot bed for insurgents but that does not justify the massacre that occurred there."

So you admit that there was high levels of insurgents there? So you admit there was a reason for going there? So will you then take a look at the facts. The tanks never rolled over civilians; that is untrue. The tanks never shot at civilians, that is untrue. The White Phosphorous was dropped on insurgent locations; and not as a means to kill them, but as a means to flush them out, where they could be killed or captured. I am not denying that civilians were killed, but the number of civilian deaths was 19, not hundreds or thousands. That is total sedond source media bullshit. Media reporters that were there documented 19, civilians testified to the shootings occuring during the illegal riot. Bombs were never dropped on civilians, White Phosphorous was dropped on insurgents; and tanks opened fire on buildings that insurgents were using as machinegun nests. Again, as the US military even said, this was the hottest urban conflict since the Battle of the Bulge in WWII....and so yes, there is going to be civilians around, and in a game of kill or be killed; with bullets travelling at mach 3+ speeds, 3800 feet per second muzzle velocity; there are bound to be civilians caught in the crossfire..and yes, that is tragic.

"There is no doubt that Fallujah was a hot bed for insurgents but that does not justify the massacre that occurred there."

...apparently you never studied biology in school...the hot weather there would help decompose faster as well....it doesn't take that long to decompose...especially if the bodies were half melted to begin with. The Battle of Fallujah didn't happen last year My friend, it happened in 2004; that was 5 years ago now. There would be bodies there, seeing as over 1500 insurgents were killed.

"They all stayed in the house for eight days, surviving on roots and one cup of water, which they saved for the baby."

...this line strikes Me as odd, seeing as in the blisterring heat of the Middle East (of which you haven't experienced) the human body CANNOT survive 8 days without water.

"On the eighth day they were discovered by some members of the Iraqi National Guard..."

...I should inform you that the Iraqi National Guard is fighting alongside the US...if they were helping the citizens there, why wouldn't they be outraged at what the US did???

so here is something I don't get....why would they waste time trashing their furniture? You've never been to war, and that alone makes it obvious.

FogofWar: "She could not get help. She could not go into the streets because the Americans had posted snipers on the roofs and were killing anyone who ventured out, even at night."

...soo assuming that the Americans are as cold-blooded as you are gullable enough to think; they obviously would not care about human life...and taking that out of the equation; we can look at this from a strictly numeric perspective: Why then, would they be wasting ammunition of elderly women? What threat could these elderly pose? None; so killing them would not change a thing....so killing them would be wasting ammunition. Here's a little bit of information for you....when you are entering battle, you carry upwards of 120 lbs of gear with you...anything you can do to lighten your load pays off in the long run...it also means more rations and water you can carry, and the better your chance of survival...seeing as you think they are so self centered as to care about no one but themselves, wouldn't that be the key? Snipers take very little ammunition with them in comparison...and as I said earlier, in Afghanistan, we average 2 clips of ammo per soldier; and that isn't a sniper rifle, that's an assault rifle (Semi-auto, 3 round burst and fully-auto settings). That isn't much ammo...think of how few bullets each sniper is going to have...really, why waste them on someone who couldn't hurt you if they tried? Why not save that ammo for a real threat? Looks like that's a huge flaw in your story...again, something you wouldn't understand unless you were in battle....you have never heard bullets wizz by your head, and still hold your fire, because you cannot see the person firing at you. You don't shoot until you see the target, otherwise you are wasting your ammo...and when you do see the target, and have no ammo left...guess what...he sees you too! "If you are in range, so is the enemy!" Infantry Journal. Yet again, there are only two people who know the soldiers, the soldiers, and their enemies. All others have a second-hand opinion. That is what that implies. It's little things like that that make Me laugh at your stories. No sniper in the world is going to waste bullets like that; they take very few with them; one shot, one kill...that is their motto; so they have no need for more ammo.

"She tried her best to stop the bleeding, but it was to no avail. She stayed with him, her only son, until he died. He took four hours to die."

cut in half and it took 4 hours to die? with no medical supplies? BULLSHIT!

"the two ambulances that came to help the wounded were shot up and destroyed by US troops."

..waste of ammo...no troop is going to get themselves killed when they run out of ammo taking shots at it.

"meaning there were no men other than family members in the house. There were no weapons, no spent cartridges."

...funny, seeing as surviving insurgents, starved for ammo and weapons would raid the bodies of the fallen. We did it in WWII as well...why leave ammo behind when someone dies? That ammo could save someone elses life. This is actually how the Soviets armed their soldiers. Most of them didn't have guns or ammo to begin with. They took them off the bodies of the Germans that died, and used them (which worked out, seeing as the Germans had the best rifles anyways).

"Nobody knows how many died."

...try 19

"Dr Salam Ismael, now 28 years old, was head of junior doctorsin Baghdad before the invasion of Iraq. He was in Fallujah in April 2004 where he treated casualties of the assault on the city."

28? So in 2004, he was 23? I thought a doctrine was 7 years...actually 9 now...so how could a 23 year old be a doctor????? Impossible My friend.

FogofWar: "Napalm and Fuel-Air Bombs were outlawed under the fourth amendment to the Geneva conventions, 1980. The only country not to sign this was the United states.
I am glad that you except that the use of Napalm is unacceptable"

funny thing is that the Geneva Conventions do not define the legal usage of weapons; so the Geneva Conventions cannot "outlaw" anything. The Geneva Conventions is the International Law for the treatment of non-combatants and Prisoners of War; no where does it cover such weapons. Funny, you say that the US is the ONLY country that failed to sign this imaginary convention, seeing as Argentina used Napalm during the Falklands War. So too was it used in Serbia in 1994...and many other times as well.

International law does not necessarily prohibit the use of napalm or other incendiaries against military targets, but use against civilian populations was banned by the United Nations Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons.


so where did you get your 'fact' of it being outlawed by the Geneva Conventions? I really would like to know, seeing as the Conventions don't cover that. The Geneva Conventions deals with treatment of people; and so, as an annexe to the Geneva Conventions, the UN came up with the CCWC, or convention on Certain Conventional Weapons which, although written on 10 October 1980, didn't come into effect until December of 1983. It simply restricts the usage of certain conventional weapons; specifically ones deemed as too excessive (interperative much). It serves to restrict usage of these weapons, as in they cannot be used in "exessive" force (But excessive is an opinion, not a written number) and on civilian targets....hate to break it to you, it's useless....NO weapons are allowed to be used directly on civilians. Even the nuclear bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not dropped on civilian targets, but industrial complexes and military installations; so they would not have been deemed excessive either....the sad reality is that the UN is powerless to stop such acts...but once again, the US did NOT use napalm at Fallujah anyways. The big problem with the CCWC is that there is no formal recognition of dealing with any usage of these....they don't stop anyone from using them anyways...

"You talk about rock attacks and breaking the law and violating curfew.
I ask you as a soldier what would you do if someone invaded your country and imposed some kind of martial law?"

...problem is, I wouldn't have been supporting a man who would use poison gases labeled by the Geneva Protocol (The actual UN laws on usage of chemical weapons) of 1928 on his own people; and like the millions of other Iraqis, would be supporting the US, and a member of the Iraqi National Guard, or other factions...sorry...I don't support mass murdering dictators that treat his own countrymen like such shit, run them into the ground, and deny them basic needs so that he can live it up in paradise with his Sunni tribe members and family...another fact is that the US aren't killing these civilians...again, waste of ammo right?

FogofWar: I'm sorry, but if you really believe that shit, then you truly are the dumbest person I have met. I don't think that really is the case; I hope that isn't the case. The claims you just made are an atrocity on their own. The claims made are insulting to EVERY person who has ever worn a uniform in service of their country; and all of those who died throughout ALL the wars in our modern world! You really think anyone can be that cold-blooded and hateful? Even the Nazi's were not that cruel! Even the Nazi soldiers did not commit such heinous acts; yet you think the world is just sitting back and letting this happen...that makes everyone alive responsible for acts that even Adolf Hitler himself would have thought cruel and inhumane! That would make every person alive worse than those who committed such acts in Germany....you really think that is the case? Anyone who would believe that is completely ignorant towards military affairs and completely incapable of understanding humanity and completely incapable of any concern for humans themselves; or you would understand how insulting you are being to those who have fought so hard for your right to say such things!

"Maybe its because there is little oil and gas there."

Then why is the US in the Philippines???


"Going into Iraq and Afgahnistan only inflames the situation and recruits more terrorists."

and sitting back and letting them kill has gotten us where???? Remember the conversation of UN troops sitting back and watching 800, 000 people get butchered in Rwanda?

"We're in a world in which the possibility of terrorism, married up with technology, could make us very, very sorry that we didn't act." -Condoleeza Rice.

Of course fighting them will infuriate them, and cause them to recruit more; but it will keep the fighting to those fighting it, and not the civilians that they are targetting. Is that not the better solution? If you cut off the head of a dragon, you kill the beast....Kill the leader of the group, and the regeme collapses...so yes, fighting it does accomplish something.

In a perfect world, there would be no war; but this world is far from perfect; and that is the beauty of it My friend...everything you experience is more beautiful knowing the horrors elsewhere; be thankful that you do not have to see such horrors on your doorstep; but do not think that those horrors are being committed by the ones fighting such evils. I tell you now, as a soldier; no one has more compassion and care for the civilians in those areas as the soldiers fighting there. It would be great if we could stop this fighting, and not have to worry about the threats that could arise; but one must be ready for them, and sometimes that means fighting them.

All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.

Outbackjack: You state in terms of the images of Fallujah.
"and some of them were not even from the current mission"
So that means some of them were.

There is no doubt that there were plenty of "insurgents" in Fallujah.
What really is an insurgent?
One mans insurgent is another mans hero.As Ronald Reagan said of the Mujahadeen in Afgahnistan "They are freedom fighters".How about Nelson Mandela?

As for this "Illegal" riot in Fallujah that you continually speak of.
Ha ha what a joke!!!!
Illegal by whos rules?

You said.
"sorry...I don't support mass murdering dictators that treat his own countrymen like such shit, run them into the ground, and deny them basic needs so that he can live it up in paradise with his Sunni tribe members and family"

Saddam Hussein had been in U.S custody for nearly eighteen months,so I fail to see how the insurgents were supporting him.Also considering there were more Shiite people in Iraq it is fair to say there were more "insurgents" who despised him than supported him.

"The White Phosphorous was dropped on insurgent locations; "
I am glad you finally admit white phosphorus was used.This has been one of my main arguments.

You go on about wasting ammunition?
It was quite clear the U.S soldiers in Fallujah thought that they were not wasting ammunition,it is obvious they intended to kill anyone that was there,including the indiscriminate shooting through peoples front doors.
You seem to have this idealogical way of thinking that Fallujah was carried out in a certain way as you experienced from country's soldiers in Afgahnistan.Fallujah was a massacare,though I am not saying that may not have happened in Afgahnistan too.

"Yet again, there are only two people who know the soldiers, the soldiers, and their enemies. All others have a second-hand opinion."

More arrogance on your part again.All I know is I am thankful that we have greedy politicians running the world and not thick in the head soldiers such as you.

One of your favourite tactics(just like Republicans in the U.S)is when you dont like something you hear you attack the person that says it.
You see fog,I have met Salam Ismael and spent an afternoon with him.I found him to be a man of integrity who witnessed the massacre at Fallujah and risked his life to go in and care for his people.So yes,I have spoken to people who were there.Have you?
I doubt it.
As for you saying he was to young to be a doctor,grow up.Heres some info on the man that you would have found had you bothered researching.

Dear Friends,

My name is Salam Ismael, I am 29 years old and am an Iraqi doctor. I was chief of the junior doctors in Iraq and I am now general secretary of an Iraqi NGO called Doctors for Iraq Society.

Our organisation consists of young doctors who have worked across Iraq from the south to the north of the country. During the current occupation I was one of a team of doctors who found ourselves under siege inside Fallujah and witnessed the barbaric acts and crimes carried out by US soldiers in the name of liberating my people.

Recently I was with a group of doctors in the Hadetha hospital, west Iraq, when US occupation forces launched a new military operation in the area. I witnessed them commit new crimes and violate the Geneva Convention by preventing patients from getting access to health care. We witnessed how the American troops burned the medical stores in the hospital which is the main one in the west area of Iraq and how they killed an injured patient while he was in his bed.
June 2005

Outbackjack: Here is the info on the Geneva convention that you somehow couldnt find but my eight year old son would have no problems finding.

1980 Convention on prohibitions or restrictions on the use of certain conventional weapons which may be deemed to be excessively injurious or to have indiscriminate effects (CCW), which includes:

* the Protocol (I) on non-detectable fragments
* the Protocol (II) on prohibitions or restrictions on the use of mines, booby traps and other devices
* the Protocol (III) on prohibitions or restrictions on the use of incendiary weapons

You seriously ask me why the U.S is in the Philipines????
Allow me to give you a little history lesson.
The Philipines is a former U.S colony which the U.S took off Spain in the war they both had in 1898.It has always been a strategic point for the U.S in Asia as Singapore and Hong Kong were to the British.
Do you know that the U.S also took Cuba off the Spanish as a result of this war?

You repeatedly babble on about how we have to go in.You have stated in another forum how you believe in One world government.This quite clearly shows why you continue to defend the atrocities in Fallujah.You have a pseudo fascist view of the world,where you feel everything has to controlled somehow.But I guess what can we expect from a brainwashed soldier?

franklin1950: i think i may have to rethink my previous statements made somewhere and retract my previous sentements and ill concluded praise .
carry on .

FogofWar: "You state in terms of the images of Fallujah.
"and some of them were not even from the current mission"
So that means some of them were."

and???? I am not denying that there was a battle there; but those were not all the bodies of civilians either. Those were not attacked by Napalm either, those were not at all what you claimed them to be.

"There is no doubt that there were plenty of "insurgents" in Fallujah.
What really is an insurgent?"

in·sur·gent
Pronunciation: In-sir-jənt
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin insurgent-, insurgens, present participle of insurgere to rise up, from in- + surgere to rise — more at surge
Date: 1765
1: a person who revolts against civil authority or an established government ; especially : a rebel not recognized as a belligerent
2: one who acts contrary to the policies and decisions of one's own political party

...an insergent is illegal; it is an enemy to peace and stability. Do not compare the Taliban or an Iraqi Insurgent to Nelson Mandella; that is pure stupidity!

"As for this "Illegal" riot in Fallujah that you continually speak of.
Ha ha what a joke!!!!
Illegal by whos rules?"

By the mayor and the municipal government of the city of Fallujah.

"Saddam Hussein had been in U.S custody for nearly eighteen months,so I fail to see how the insurgents were supporting him.Also considering there were more Shiite people in Iraq it is fair to say there were more "insurgents" who despised him than supported him."

...perhaps you should pay attention to recent news. Saddam Hussein is dead; but that does not mean that those who supported his regeme are not still alive and trying to carry it on in his name. The Soviet Union did not collapse when Stalin; or even Lenin died did it?

...also considering there were more Shiite people means that there were far more whom opposed Hussein than support him; yet more of a case for the US led invasion My friend.

"I am glad you finally admit white phosphorus was used.This has been one of my main arguments."

...actually, no it was not. The main point of this arguement was originally you claiming that they mass murdered innocent people, not insurgents; and that they used Napalm and not White Phosphorous. White Phosphorous is not the same as Napalm...not even close. As I have said before, white phosphorous is what makes smoke grenades. It was not the cause of death of those insurgents either....a bullet was.

FogofWar: "You go on about wasting ammunition?
It was quite clear the U.S soldiers in Fallujah thought that they were not wasting ammunition,it is obvious they intended to kill anyone that was there,including the indiscriminate shooting through peoples front doors.
You seem to have this idealogical way of thinking that Fallujah was carried out in a certain way as you experienced from country's soldiers in Afgahnistan.Fallujah was a massacare,though I am not saying that may not have happened in Afgahnistan too."

I train with US soldiers. They are not worse than Nazis...and what you are claiming, is worse than the Nazis. I have trained with more Us soldiers than Americans you have met; they train up here at CFB Wainwright and CFB Cold Lake (airforce, as per NORAD) several times. We also travel extensively to Fort Bliss in New Mexico/Texas, to practice for missions in Afghanistan. The US soldiers are trained the same as the rest of NATO (and the rest of the world at that). It is a waste of ammo to shoot unless you can see the target infront of you. You are more likely to get killed by blindly firing at an opening than you are waiting it out until you see the enemy (Firing will mean that you must temporarily expose yourself from behind cover...if you cannot see the enemy; then you may not be shooting at him...and as the US Infantry journal states: "If the enemy is in range. so are you!"; in other words, you are exposing yourself to being shot while accomplishing nothing on your own...a waste of ammo, and a loss of cover. NO soldier in the world will do this!)

"More arrogance on your part again.All I know is I am thankful that we have greedy politicians running the world and not thick in the head soldiers such as you."

...thank you for proving what I said. I ask you now; how many US soldiers have you met? That's what I thought!

"One of your favourite tactics(just like Republicans in the U.S)is when you dont like something you hear you attack the person that says it.
You see fog,I have met Salam Ismael and spent an afternoon with him.I found him to be a man of integrity who witnessed the massacre at Fallujah and risked his life to go in and care for his people.So yes,I have spoken to people who were there.Have you?
I doubt it."

...and where did you meet him? Next time you meet him, please ask him how it was he was a doctor practicing in Fallujah in 2004 at the age of 23, seeing as it is impossible to have achieved a doctrine in that time (and therefore could not have been a doctor).

"Recently I was with a group of doctors in the Hadetha hospital, west Iraq, when US occupation forces launched a new military operation in the area. I witnessed them commit new crimes and violate the Geneva Convention by preventing patients from getting access to health care. We witnessed how the American troops burned the medical stores in the hospital which is the main one in the west area of Iraq and how they killed an injured patient while he was in his bed.
June 2005"

...kinda a waste, seeing as they set up those hospitals; don't yah think? Seeing as they are the ones providing the medical supplies to Iraq....that would be pure stupidity on their behalf.

FogofWar: "Here is the info on the Geneva convention that you somehow couldnt find but my eight year old son would have no problems finding.

1980 Convention on prohibitions or restrictions on the use of certain conventional weapons which may be deemed to be excessively injurious or to have indiscriminate effects (CCW), which includes:"

...funny, seeing as I stated all of this earlier....do you even finish reading My posts before responding?...never-the-less, I shall go through this with you yet again:

"1980 Convention on prohibitions or restrictions on the use of certain conventional weapons which may be deemed to be excessively injurious or to have indiscriminate effects (CCW), which includes:"

as stated, RESTRICTIONS...in other words, they are still able to be used.

"* the Protocol (I) on non-detectable fragments
* the Protocol (II) on prohibitions or restrictions on the use of mines, booby traps and other devices
* the Protocol (III) on prohibitions or restrictions on the use of incendiary weapons"

...here's a little information you may not have known...seeing as it is clear that you did not read My whole post; Protocol II was not accepted. The Ottawa Treaty, signed last year, in 2008, deals with the prohibition of land mines; and it has not yet been mandated.

Now, once again; Napalm is NOT illegal (It also was not used in Fallujah, so it is irrelevent anyways); but rather the UN has prohibited it's use on civilians (yet the Geneva Conventions does not permit the usage of any weapons on civilians; so that entire convention was pretty much useless).

"You seriously ask me why the U.S is in the Philipines????
Allow me to give you a little history lesson.
The Philipines is a former U.S colony which the U.S took off Spain in the war they both had in 1898.It has always been a strategic point for the U.S in Asia as Singapore and Hong Kong were to the British.
Do you know that the U.S also took Cuba off the Spanish as a result of this war?"

I assure you I have spent more time studying history than you...you have made that predominantly clear several times. Canada is one of the top destinations for Philippine immigrants. I have met hundreds upon hundreds of Philippine people...and all of them would like to see the world step in and assist them in eliminating the terrorist attacks there. You are aware of the numbers of Catholics in the Philippines right? This is exactly why they are such a target for Islamic supremists. Trust Me, they want the help!

What does Cuba have to do with any of this? Did you know that it is also illegal for the US to trade with Cuba? Cuba was a pivitol role in the Cold War, remember the whole Cuban Missile Crisis. The Spanish were supported by the USSR during the Spanish civil war, the Nazis also supplied pilots for the rebels. Spain was a threat to the US at that time dear friend...seeing as both sides were being fronted by two of their mortal enemies. Who cares? That is 100% irrelevent.

FogofWar: "You repeatedly babble on about how we have to go in.You have stated in another forum how you believe in One world government."

You obvisouly did not pay attention to anything I have said...thank you for making it clear how narrow-minded you are. I have never said that I support a one-government world; but rather said that if you seek for world peace, then you support a one-government world. I see world peace as about as real as Santa Clause. It will never happen; and I do not under any circumstances want a one-government world....you must not understand the mentality of a Canadian if you would think one would like to be ruled by an American.


"This quite clearly shows why you continue to defend the atrocities in Fallujah.You have a pseudo fascist view of the world,where you feel everything has to controlled somehow."

...funny, you are the one saying that we should have left Saddam Hussein in power; FYI, he was a facist dictator....in fact, of the two of us, I am the only one willing to take up arms and defend My people, and the rest of the world, from these facists; yet you claim that I am one...hhmmmm

"But I guess what can we expect from a brainwashed soldier?"

"There are only two types of people who understand a soldier, the soldier, and his enemy. Everyone else has a second hand opinion." Thank you for proving this once again My friend. I hope you one day find the peace you so eagerly seek to find inside...it is clear that you cannot achieve it yet.

Outbackjack: "What really is an insurgent?

in·sur·gent
Pronunciation: In-sir-jənt
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin insurgent-, insurgens, present participle of insurgere to rise up, from in- + surgere to rise — more at surge
Date: 1765
1: a person who revolts against civil authority or an established government ; especially : a rebel not recognized as a belligerent
2: one who acts contrary to the policies and decisions of one's own political party"

By your definition Nelson Mandela would be classified as an insurgent.The government of South Africa threw him in jail for many years because they considered his actions illegal.
What about the french resistance in WW2?
I am sure the nazis and puppet local mayors would have also deemed them as insurgents who were carrying out illegal activities.

I have to say I really get bored of having to explain basics of the english language to you.I assume you either dont read my posts properly or cant read.

I said:
"Saddam Hussein HAD BEEN in U.S custody for nearly eighteen months,so I fail to see how the insurgents were supporting him.Also considering there were more Shiite people in Iraq it is fair to say there were more "insurgents" who despised him than supported him."

You said:
...perhaps you should pay attention to recent news. Saddam Hussein is dead.

Notice the words "HAD BEEN" in there.This relates to the time of Fallujah massacare and that Saddam Hussein had been in custody for about 18 months.
I hope you understood what I just wrote.

Here is another blatant example of you not reading or knowing how to read.

You said:
...and where did you meet him? Next time you meet him, please ask him how it was he was a doctor practicing in Fallujah in 2004 at the age of 23, seeing as it is impossible to have achieved a doctrine in that time (and therefore could not have been a doctor).

Here is the article again that I posted:

Dear Friends,

My name is Salam Ismael, I am 29 years old and am an Iraqi doctor. I was chief of the junior doctors in Iraq and I am now general secretary of an Iraqi NGO called Doctors for Iraq Society.

Our organisation consists of young doctors who have worked across Iraq from the south to the north of the country. During the current occupation I was one of a team of doctors who found ourselves under siege inside Fallujah and witnessed the barbaric acts and crimes carried out by US soldiers in the name of liberating my people.

Recently I was with a group of doctors in the Hadetha hospital, west Iraq, when US occupation forces launched a new military operation in the area. I witnessed them commit new crimes and violate the Geneva Convention by preventing patients from getting access to health care. We witnessed how the American troops burned the medical stores in the hospital which is the main one in the west area of Iraq and how they killed an injured patient while he was in his bed.
June 2005

Note the year 2005 and the fact he is 29 years old!!!
So you cant count either?

Its a bit like your claim in an earlier thread that you remember the cold war and being told in the classroom what to do if there was an attack by the USSR.
You remember this?
You would have been starting school just as the cold war was finishing and the USSR collapsing.
Are you 23,24 or 46?
Or dont you know that one either?

Dont worry fog of brain at least when you go to a job interview in civilian life when the employer asks why you cant read or count you can tell him at least you know how to kill people.

Outbackjack: "Canada is one of the top destinations for Philippine immigrants. I have met hundreds upon hundreds of Philippine people...and all of them would like to see the world step in and assist them in eliminating the terrorist attacks there."

Funny that,you are running around carrying out your own polls now unofficially,yet when I cite official polls you cry foul.
Truly hilarious stuff.

We have a lot of Phillipinos in Australia too being such close proximity to the Phillipines and the majority complain about western imperialism in their country.One bloke even told me how the Spanish stole their land by giving them glass beads.Its funny how your "poll" interviews people who no longer live in the Phillipines.

Also yet more contadictions from you about wanting a one world government.
I am not surprised you deny this.

As for meeting U.S soldiers I have met many sailors and marines.You see Perth is one of their main stopover points after coming from the middle east.I have even sat down in pubs and had beers with them(you may find that surprising).I have found the majority to come from a poor working class background who needed work as well as wanted to see the world.There were some gung ho ones over the years but a good number of them actually opposed what was going on in Iraq.

As for the Geneva convention I have repeatedly stated that the U.S has refused to ratify the section of 1980 I have described before.

I dont think I have a lot more to really say to you Fog about this without continuely going around in circles.
But I will say this.

The thing is fog,out of all this you continue to defend the indefensable.
Why?
It is quite obvious.
You see I am sure you have probalbly killed someone or maybe many and I bet that rests heavily on you.
You wouldnt be human if it didnt as it is something that no man should have to do.I am glad I dont have to live with such a burden and I genuinely feel sorry for anyone who does.
So this means you have to continously justify the wars that are going on,not so much to us but mainly to yourself.

FogofWar: ...actually, it was the denotative definition of an insurgent from the Webster's Dictionary. Again, you try and lump the Taliban and Al-queda into the same class as Nelson Mandella. When did Mandella stone his daughter to death for smiling at the wrong boy? When did Mandella murder hundreds of elementary schoolchildren to stop the girls from getting an education? When did Mandella shoot a 50 year old Canadian carpenter who was helping rebuild said schools? Nelson Mandella fought a tryrant government that murdered his family and his people based on the colour of his skin; he did not murder children and unarmed seventeen year old girls because "Allah" told him to. Comparing Nelson Mandella to a Taliban or Iraqi insurgent is like your earlier comparison of it to the Rwandan Genocide and the UNAMIR campaign: pure ignorance!
French Resistance? Nazi's "puppet local mayors"? So they don't teach history in Australia? Thank you for once again showing your lack of understanding about military affairs and armed conflict. An insurgent is someone who revolts against Government authority, etc. The Nazis were not the French government: they were members of an Armed Force from a foreign nation; thus French Resistance fighters were not "insurgents"...and for the record, they didn't have "puppet mayors"; they had Generals and Colonels of the Nazi war machine hold and maintain control through a complex system of ranks and soldiers in what is known as the "Chain of Command". There were no puppets, the French government was independant from Germany in every way. Perhaps you should try reading a book or two on WWII first dear friend. If Germany invaded Australia tomorrow and seized control of all military installations and strongholds, annihilating the Australian Forces, would it make you an insurgent (enemy of the Australian Government) to take up arms and fight for the Australian PM?
Basics of English? HA! Funny, seeing as I picked out numerous errors in your very sentence: FYI; Enlgish is spelled with a capital E! It's a proper noun; they should have taught you that in about grade 2. It makes Me laugh that you claim I cannot understand basics of English in a sentence riddled with errors and poor overall grammar.
You wrote: "I have to say I really get bored of having to explain basics of the english language to you.I assume you either don't read my posts properly or can't read"
Properly written it would read: "I have to say(comma/"THAT" I really get bored of having to explain (THE) basics of the (E)nglish language to you.(Missed a space; actually, formally for typing it should be double spaced to start a new sentence) I assume you either don't read my posts properly or can't read."

You want to debate the basics of Enlgish, I will gladly discuss this in the appropriate forum; may we please get back to the topic of this forum? Oh, and speaking of not reading posts; you failed to notice the facts that I posted about Allan Greenspan as well as the Geneva Conventions on topic that I posted in the post directly before you reposted it saying: You have found information on the topic that I couldn't; even though your 8 year old son could have...remember when I asked you to name the leader of the Taliban; and remember how you have yet to?
What good doead repeating these claims do? I read throu them already (hence the quoting of you) and responded. Let's try this again since it is clear you won't give up when your discreditted: so, once more, here we go:

What the hell does Saddam Hussein being in captivity have to do with how much support he had? Hitler had loyal men who supported his regeme after he was dead! Those who were fighting for Hussein before he was taken captive did not just give up once he was caught. Do you really think everyone there would just fall into a state of peace because one man was taken out of it? Come on; get real! These people truly believed in their cause, why would they simply abandon it?

FogofWar: Seriously...think about it. Once again let's explain this so you can understand: Saddam Hussein was captured. You said hat you fail to understand how they were supporting him...maybe by continuing to fight his enemy; fight for his "cause"; fight to see the way of life they had under him (being treated with such superiority to the rest of the nation) continue, and fight AGAINST; key word AGAINST, the government that the free people of Iraq have chosen. Remember watching on TV when people in Iraq cheered when Hussein was hanged? That is because the vast majority of Iraqi people do not approve of his empire; and are not in favour of the insurgents the US is fighting. Also considering there were more Shiites than Sunnis means yes, there really were more people who dispised him rather than supported him; all the more reason to stand up for those that make up the majority right? The fact that the Sunnis were not the majority simply means that Hussein protected a small number, a minority of his country; and that means that the vast majority was not treated fairly...not treated "FREELY". Funny thing; you said a simple google search of Fallujah showed tons of "evidence" of what the US did there....a simply google search of "US soldier hugging Iraqi" wielded a few pictures that ARE in fact from the current Iraq campaign:

http://mksviews.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/iraqi-man-hugging-soldier-ramadi.jpg

Ramadi in Anbar province, Iraq. Note the uniforms of the US soldiers in this picture; note that the camoflauge is entirely different to that of the pictures from "Fallujah". This picture is from the current Iraq campaign; as this type of camoflauge was developed here in Canada since the deployment into Afghanistan. The only places in the world it has been used is Iraq, Afghanistan and now Africa (so I wonder how many of you even knew that we are still in Africa as well...). It was a huge topic on the news here in Canada in 2003, when we went overseas to Afghanistan, we had the wrong colour of camoflauge (Our Liberal government at the time cut military budgets so drastically, that they couldn't afford the fabric to make proper uniforms), the Consrvative government now in place has pushed for increases in the military budget to get our troops the necessary tools needed....the proper uniforms were the first step. A new computer disign was discovered to be more effective due to it's larger number of patterns than before. The computer systems are capable of making trillions of patter designs, not achievable before, so there is less repetition, and thus, a more random and natural camo effect. If you see a picture of a soldier deployed wearing this camoflauge, it is a picture from either Iraq or Afghanistan (Africa is noticably different, seeing as the people there are pretty much all black). First sign of what campaign the pictures were from is that camoflauge.
You seem to have this idea that Iraq was a nation that was doing fine before the US invaded. I have noticed one thing about humans in the past few years of My experiences: People CANNOT comprehend or understand something that they cannot picture. Here in Canada, our Aboriginal population makes up the vast majority of criminals, drug users, prostitutes, and prison inmates (current statistics put the percentage of Native inmates at 70% of all prison population). Violence on Indian Reserves is higher than anywhere else in the country...why? It is simple....the world they live in is one completely different to ours. There are many places here where the levels of racism towards Aboriginals is terrifying; Lloydminster, Saskatchewan/Alberta is a prime example: A city not more than half an hour from the Onion Lake Cree Indian Reserve; and home of one of the largest oil refineries in North America. This town is full of natives, and rigpigs....two completely different worlds; and they clash like you wouldn't believe.

FogofWar: Murders have happened on several occasions; and in a city of about 30, 000 people. It's really sad...yet I have lived there....the attitude towards natives there, is really hard to claim as "Stereotypical"; most of it is true. I have seen a native lady throw her two year old child in the middle of the street to play, while the mom went back into the house; not paying any attention to them. You can smell marijuana smoke pouring out of a house with the sound of an infant crying inside. A man, crippled at that, was beaten to death with 2x4s by two native men. Why does this happen? Because of the Reserve system. There are a few natives from Onion Lake; I worked with them building a grain elevator where I had the chance to speak with them; but they really are few. It is sad yes....but it is a reality. Even those that are decent people from these reserves admit that the rest of them are giving their people a bad name. One man, 21 at the time, told Me he completely understood why everyone has these stereotypical ideals of Natives...he said he understood why everyone views them as trash. Now that put a lot of it into perspective for Me...when one of their own would admit that it's not really stereotyping if it's true.
The one thing that I noticed however, was that even those decent people among them, had absolutely NO comprehension of money...no understanding of currency at all. How could they? They have lived on a reserve that gives them a treaty check every month, thousands of dollars for their 18 birthday; buys them a house and a car...but they are never told where all that comes from. they don't pay taxes like the rest of the population, so they don't have to work for their money, which is taxed to go to pay for these reserves. Every check I make has money taken off to pay for them....how could they understand what it is like to have to work for a living? How could they understand what it is like to have to buy your own car, your own house? They don't understand the difference between gross and net pay; because they don't have one. When your mind cannot visualize such a world, you cannot truly understand it...this is the same as the current missions in Iraq and Afghanistan. People here in Canada do not believe Me half the things that are going on there; because they have never seen such a world. My cousin too saw things most people here still to this day do not believe happens anywhere in the world. They have never seen a school blown up....they have never seen an infant hacked apart by machetes, they have never seen a seventeen year old girl stoned to death in the middle of the street while authorities watch. Here is a video taken from Iraq...this is the world that was Iraq under the power of Saddam Hussein:



Still think everything was fine in Iraq before the invasion? Still think the uS shouldn't be there? You have this idea of Iraq, based off of a world similar to yours in Australia...how could you understand what it is really like there when you have seen nothing remotely close to it? You are lucky to be this naive...in this case, ignorance truly is bliss. Most people here in Canada are the same. It is the one thing that I have noticed out of My experiences; and it is the reason that I will not judge why people act a certain way in certain parts of the world until I have seen it first hand. There are places I haven't been as well...how could I possibly know what it is like until I really see it? The life of an Iraqi during Hussein's rule was a life without power, a life in which you were too afraid to leave home...a life of pure horror...unless you were a Sunni member of which Hussein was tied to.

here is a few photos and some stories from Anbar, Iraq: please take the time to see them:

http://mksviews.wordpress.com/thank-you-america/

FogofWar: So, about them supporting him after he was captured...does this make sence to you now? If the Australian people voted for a leader, and the politician running against (the least popular of them)seized power through a military coup and denied those who supported the other their basic needs, you feel it would be wrong for someone to fight for your rights? ...the very rights and freedoms that had just been taken away by a minority with more arms and funding. Does that make an sence at all? It sure doesn't to Me.
Once again, I stress Hussein is DEAD! People are still supporting his regeme even though he is dead; why would they not have been supporting it when he was in captivity? Think about it!

So about this article: You said that you have met Salam Ismael, I ask you again: where and when did you meet him? Are you saying that you have read an article from him (and as such have "met" him as in heard his words), or that you ARE him? There is a difference between posting an article and telling Me when you actually met him as you have claimed.

"Note the year is 2005 and the fact that he is 29 years old!!! So you can't count either?"

Yes, I can count; and I can also do research. Salam Ismael is a 29 year old doctor from Iraq...not 29 in 2005, but 29 now, in 2009. Don't want to believe Me: fine, here, check out these sites in which his article is posted, and information on him is given:

http://www.countercurrents.org/iraq-ismael180205.htm

http://www.brusselstribunal.org/DrSalam.htm

...here's the thing; your first mention of this man was in what he witnessed when he returned to Fallujah, as you said, about two months ago...according to the article you posted, he was 28 at that time (meaning he just recently turned 29) he returned. This places his age at 23 at the time of the battle of Fallujah; and at least one year short of a doctrine. I am not arguing his age anymore; I really don't care. The fact was that your original information was errored, and now your new article even disclaims your original source. Yet again, I advize you not to take everything you see on TV or read in papers or online as flawless fact. Did you ever try and research Salam Ismael? Did you bother to see how credible he is; or if he is a neutral party, or siding with the Hussein regeme? Thank you for proving the media is not always correct. So you understand now why I tell you not to judge the soldiers actions until you have been there for yourselfe?
As for the cold war and My age: I am 24, 25 in a few months. Remember what year the Soviet Union collapsed? The Hammer and Sickle flag of the Soviet Union was lowered for the last time on Christmas Day of 1991. Do the math...if I was 5 years old in Kindergarten; and was born in 1984; what year would I have began attending school? 1991 was not 20 years ago now was it? Remeber when I also stated we see Russian planes probing our airspace to this day? There has (and will be for a long, long time) always been a lot of tension between Russia and North America (hence the rivalry in hockey between Canada and Russia).

"Don't worry fog of brain at least when you go to a job interview in civilian life when the employer asks why you can't read of count you can tell him at least you know how to kill people."

-apparently you have never been informed about the CFAT. The CFAT is the Canadian Forces Aptitude Test: The most thorough aptitude test in the country. It always makes Me smile when people like you assume military personell are braindead (Most Canadian high ranking officers are Royal Military College graduates, their marks were in the high 90s in school) brauns who cannot do anything but cause destruction. The joke in the military is how useful such braindead people really are...human shields, since those kinds of people would be killed off right off the bat.

FogofWar: You are aware of what the term "Fog of War" means right? Technically, calling Me Fog of Brain is doing nothing other than saying you cannot understand Me; and so far you have proven that one very well. Oh, and don't worry about Me in civilian job interviews; My intellect and understanding of Military affairs has made My carreer more than rock solid. The government of Canada grants a pension to all who have seen active service or served for a minimum of 9 years....it would also seem the government cares about their soldiers well'being more than you thought.

What is so hilarious about Philippine people immigrating to Canada? I suggest you come here sometime and stop into a local Tim Horton's. I do not know for sure what country is the top destination for Philippine immigrants, hence I said ONE of the top; you would like to argue this? I am more than certain there are many nations in which people from the Philippines are immigrating to; does that change the numbers coming to Canada? No. Does it mean that they are not coming here too? No. I do not care what the statistical facts of it are, that is irrelevent. What is relevent is the opinion of the people of the Philippines on the topic, and the fact is I have seen hundreds of Philippine immigrants roll into our communities in search of work (Tim Horton's has also supposedly been helping to get them here, since they are that short staffed). They are good people, well mannered, very polite, very honest, and some of the hardest working and loyal employees I have ever met, and they seem to understand the importance of stopping terrorist threats accross the globe.
So this "one bloke" told you about the "Spanish" that stole their land? Funny, you are the one bringing up the fact that the US took it from the Spaniards...so what would the Spanish have to do with this then? I know all about the problems these people face with their land; My cousin's wife is from a family that farms by Manila. They were married in the Philippines so her family could be there; and he shared many stories of life over there. None of that has anything to do with the Islamic Terrorist attacks there. Ask the people from there if they are okay with these Islamic terrorist attacks. You think they want to see them continue? What does it matter that the people I have talked to no longer live there? One of the reasons they don't live there anymore is because of these terrorist threats...the other is for the work that is here that they cannot find there. What does that matter? They still love their homeland, have family there, and do not like to see it blown up by a religous extremist movement hellbent on starting a modern day crusade to rid the world of "infidels" and impose a Muslim way of life on the world. I have seen many of them try it here in Canada too; thankfully not to such violent extents...yet.
Contradictions from Me wanting a one government world? When did I ever say that I wanted a one government world? Are you seriously so stupid as to not understand what I saide time and time again? Hitler wanted a one government world (ruled out of his world capital in Berlin called Germania); he had to be stopped. So too do the Islamic extremists want such a unified world (Remember the Taliban made non-Islamic members of their country wear bands on their arms to differentiate them...just like Hitler!). I never said a one government world was a good thing; I simply said it was the only way to end war. You said you wanted a world without war, I said that would be a world under one ruler....did I ever say this was a good thing?
It is this attitude of putting words into other peoples mouths that is why you cannot comprehend what is truly happening. I do ask you, in all kindness, sit back, see the picture from ALL sides, rationalize things from both perspectives, then form your OWN opinion wit as little bias as possible; perhaps then you can understand the world a little clearer...

FogofWar: ...and if you still disagree with these conflicts, fine! At least be properly and fully educated on it.
I am glad that you understand tat most of these soldiers are not as the picture your stories have painted them. As you said, many of them oppose what is going on in Iraq; how then, can you still think that they would commit such attrocities when they know it to be wrong and oppose it?
This in it's own right is perhaps the biggest difference between US and Canadian troops. Canada's entire Forces deployed were done so voluntarily. They do not oppose what is going on (In Afghanistan, again, we have no part in Iraq). As the US former General Douglas MacArthur once said: "It is fatal to enter war without the will to win it." You said earlier that you have more respect for those that are not willing than those who volunteer, which you think are retarded: really though, are you saying that you have more respect for someone who will take human life for a cause they know in their heart to be wrong; than someone who is willing to sacrifice their lives, and take the lives of those opposed to them; in order to bring change to a world in which has not changed since Middle Ages? You would rather someone kill for no reason, opposed to it, than have them kill to defend a cause that they know in their hearts is right?
Make no mistake though, the US soldiers that don't agree with it are still opposed to acts of tyrrany...they would not commit acts of pure murder. Don't you think if you were forced to partake in something you didn't believe in, then you would want to make there be a reason for you being there? Wouldn't you want to protect the people from dangers that you see your own government bringing to them? Don't you think then, that you would rather let these people believe what they wish and help bring some good out of this? Perhaps give them medica aide instead of denying it...perhaps bring them food instead of take it away...perhaps show the world that while their government is painting a picture to the world of the US being a bully, that the people, even the soldiers are good-hearted and decent people?
I ask you, how could you sit and talk to someone you know to be so cold and sadistic, so truly evil and capable of such horrors? How could you sit for a beer with someone you know has murdered an entire village for pleasure? Truly you do not believe such things then.
So what, the US didn't sign the CCW. Bid deal, it was useless anyways. Guess what, Canada did (We even hosted the one last year about the usage of mines, hence the Ottawa Treaty), yet we still have Napalm. It isn't illegal...and once agian, was never used in Fallujah, so it is still 100% irrelevent.
"You see I am sure you have probably killed someone or maybe many and I bet that rests heavily on you. You wouldn't be human if it didn't"

so you believe the Marines in Fallujah were not human then....you see, this is the very reason a soldier does not murder as you claimed they did in Fallujah. Soldiers are human. Post traumatic Stress Disorder is most commonly caused (Nowadays especially), by two things....witnessing horrors unimaginable (such as the first soldiers to see the concentration camps in Nazi Germany, or the peacekeepers in Rwanda, etc); and by actions one partakes in which they regret. To kill for no reason, is to regret. This is why the numbers of those diagnosed in Vietnam were so high. Fallujah did not see those numbers; but it would have in such a case that you described.