Israel and Palestine the never ending conflict (Page 2) Thatcdnguy eh!: Didn't really forget the french Mirage jets actually...was focused on the main nations brought into the topic so far but you are right V...it is a good point eh.Also the Israeli's use a lot of captured equipment...or converted eh...t-55 Russian tanks were converted to troop carriers that are still used eh...that is changing a little since the early 1980's with Israel manufacturing their own weapons...the Galli assault rifle,kfir jet fighter and the merkarva Main battle Tank...as prime examples eh.. Main point I was getting at is that with over 60 years investment into this...no one is going to step on Israeli toes as long as they can keep milking the defense contract cow...they may posture for the sake of their world image but I doubt it has any substances eh... I didn't know about the helmets for Ireland though...thanks for sharing that with us eh.... Maybe Israel should disarm Hamas by rebuilding Palestine and saying look what we did to help you eh instead of look what we can do to make us stronger eh...if they don't have the support of the people Hamas will loose it's effectiveness as a threat to any one...including the civilians of Palestine....Israel would gain a new Allie....course the same could be true for most conflicts....peace can come after people want it bad enough to view death and destruction as the worst of the two evils eh.... It's what I meant earlier when the people have to stand and tell the leaders enough....but it's hard in a country that has mandatory military training....if you think religion is good for brainwashing people...join the army eh..... Outbackjack: Goran is right.Israel should be forced to except a two state solution and the only way this could be done is through third party involvement. CDN.You miss the point that the wall that has been put up has stolen even more land from the palestinians in the West bank.A lot of this was farmland therefore denying Palestinians a vital food supply and badly needed income for an impoverished area. Settler communities continue to take more land in the west bank. The wall has stopped nothing as we have seen with the attacks with bulldozers earlier this year in Israel. Thatcdnguy eh!: No Jacko...I got your point but I never mentioned land claims eh...just concepts....and the Great Wall of China was only partly effective to....as I said,thought it might make for a better comparison is all...I get your angle but thought it was an inverse comparison eh...The Berlin Wall was built to keep Eastern Berliners from fleeing to West Berlin...yet it didn't stop people from attempting or actually succeeding from fleeing...just a deterrent eh...Much the same as Israel publicly said they were building the wall.... two questions though... wasn't it a single bulldozer stolen from a construction site in Jerusalem eh...and was it a Palestinian??? I thought it was a Syrian...can't find it on the web right now eh... As for the land claims there...I forget what it was called off the top of my head but it had something to do with Truman ....the jigsaw of Palestine I believe it was called eh... Outbackjack: There were a number of attacks involving machinery with varying success( if success is defined as killing innocent civilians ). I know the bulldozer bloke was an Arab Israeli from East jerusalem. As for the wall.The U.N has repeatedly called for it to be dismantled and it has been labelled a blantant attempt to seize yet more land from the West bank. Thatcdnguy eh!: Agreed on the land grab eh...but that's what was started long before now with the creation of Israel as a country eh...A kinda Irony that Egypt brokered the peace talks since they tried at least twice to wipe Israel out and failed eh.... As for the U.N....that's a dinosaur that needs to be replaced or reworked to deal with the world as it is today...it's lost any of it's power in bureaucratic dogma and false promises eh.... Thanks for the info on the equipment attacks...it helps with my research eh... Faisal: hello dears . The beginning I am Arabic from UAE ... and i say about this issue As for the U.N ... it do not have any means of force or pressure and It is based on the total support of the Zionist entity in the wars . and we do not hate the peoples of the West, as they say. no We love you and prove that i am here with you , but we oppose some of the unfair policies of some governments to our issues.  veronica: Okay we all agree that the UN is an impotent talking shop one certain permanent security counsel member wont let valid criticism of isreal be viewed but the same can be said about the Arab league as well it is a club for dictators and Israel is deaf to any criticism from any one but the US and even then it some times ignores them, isreal is its own master it needs to be history has taught her to be that way. i agree with that cndguy that the UN need major reform or it will go the way of the league of nations , As for the attacks by israeli arabs using JCB by just ramming them in o crouds it just goes to show that you don't need a bomb to cause panic Faisal: I also agree with you ,and Arab rulers are also a partner in these crimes. But who is the occupier and who is the resistant? Israel is the occupier , and killed thousands of innocent people. So why could not the Security Council Issuance statement of condemnation against such events ؟ the answer is :- because we are Arabs . veronica: if i may quote George Orwell all men are equal but some men are more equal then others, and if i may quote shakespeare the fault lies not in the stars but within our selves dear Brutus the arab world need to stop blaming the world for all its problums and start taking some responsability , i could get in to the origions of all this mess and the person whome i blame lord balfor but im not gonna now Thatcdnguy eh!: "our Land"...I may live in Canada eh...but as far as i know...i have a stake in this planet too eh.....so...it's really everyone's land eh....regardless of where we live....kinda reinforces Veronica's point about Arabs needing to stop blaming the world for their problems eh....I don't blame the Arabs for Canada's eh....that's us causing our own problems eh..... No offense guy...I appreciate your input as it does bring balance to this topic and opens new avenues especially since you live in that part of the world based on your profile........ veronica: Being Irish i have a natural tendency to support the underdog ie the palestinian cause, You go to the north of Ireland and the two communities are also divided in there support of the palestinians and israelis ,in a nationalist area you would have along with the irish tricolour you would have a palestinian flag flown in support of the palestinian cause and the same goes for a unionist area you would have a union jack flown along side the israeli flag, a number of years ago there was a siege on a church in bethlehem that lasted for ages the irish government agreed to take a number of palestinian that were held up in the siege asylum , Outbackjack: Yes Veronica, bloody Balfour has a lot to answer for.Both in in Palestine and your home of Ireland. Anyone who is interested .Balfour was a British politician and issued a declaration in Parliament called the Balfour declaration in the mid 1920s that was a starting point for Jews to be "repatriated" to Palestine. veronica: most modern day conflicts can be traced to the aftermath of WW1. Iraq the balkans Ireland can all have there origins at that time the carving up of the Ottoman empire Austria Hungarian empire and creating artificial countries and borders seperating peoples, The so called war to end all war ended up creating the vast majority of conflicts of the 20th century,and beyond , spacechimp: isreal and palestine ,two people one land if this conflict was to ever be solved it would take away many of the excuses that the Arab world have for blaming the west for the state that they are in , Arab leaders use this conflict to distract from there own brutally regimes and lack of freedom , Al qaeda use it as a recruiting Sargent the first thing after 911 that should have been done is that a real effort at solving the conflict the whole world was united and a once in a generation chance at solving a centuries old problem was squandered, instead more war s were started and we all know evil begets evil and war accomplishes nothing in the end ,my guess is that isreal are using the power vacuum and the window between administrations to see if its might can break the back of hamas ,weather a new administration in america can do any thing about this mess well im thinking that Obama wont touch it till a second term and just how many lives will be lost in the mean time life is cheep in certain parts of the world unfortunately  megasalexandros: Space chimp makes some good points- so many government of the middle-east use the Palestinian position to meet their won ends rather than looking ta themselfes Thpough i woudl not agree that this problem is centuries old- The jewish colonists have not been there that long. As to whether the new fuhrer of the white house (currently too busy to asnwer any questions as hes enjoying a few rounds of golf in Hawaii) will do anything to halt the Israeli attacks one doubt very much and points to his speech made a few months ago to AIPAC: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=*******2  Timetraveler: The timing of this latest Israel attack is very distressing. The world has been told that Israel is only defending itself from rocket attacks and they only wish to secure their borders. Is it really about securing borders or securing the billions of dollars in defense dollars, that will be coming from the new American administration. Thatcdnguy eh!: Quick question eh....who started this recent attack anyhow...my understanding is that Israel is responding to Hamas attacks at them...that would make Hamas attacking during a celebration time to further their cause eh...thus leading Israel to the ability to act in the previous post way....Interesting thought on it though....something I never considered before...who really started the recent attack eh... Opportunity knocking and some one answering...I agree with Chimp but I doubt Obama can wait till second term...the world wants a solution sooner eh....and by the time he takes full power it may have it regardless.... veronica: The west ask for democracy in the middle east hamas is what you get when there is no reform as for whom started this recent event its like the chicken and egg paradox ,my fear is that israeli actions may take another generation to solve ,and is only continuing the cycle of violence ,we all know that the Arab world doesn't like hamas so it will look the other way while isreal gives it a bloody nose ,the might of the british security forces couldn't defeat the IRA and the IRA only had about 200 active volunteers, in the end this action will be like the battle in jenine a number of years ago civilions will die the west will loke the other way the US will support isreal the usual empty retorick from the un will be said and notting willl have cahnged except the hatred will be deeper, giving obamas international upbringing he may have a better understanding of the matters but imcynical that his promisis of change will will be notting but hot air, Thatcdnguy eh!: True...as i mentioned that before but I'm trying to be optimistic...as you said Obama has a broader international view but only time will tell and U.S. historical support for Israel is well documented....it will likely come back to the defense cash cow and supporting the democracy eh... I think it will take at least two more generations to resolve eh... As for the attack ....I was just having a mental challenge for myself eh...I love these kinds of Paradoxes but I never applied it to this recent conflict eh(meaning the one beginning in Dec.). ...thanks for indulging me V veronica: what was that video of the kids you mentioned in another thread that some one posted is it still there , we cant be having pictures of dead children being used to make a point, Thatcdnguy eh!: I did research back in March when i was talking to a friend from this site(also why some of my info is outdated eh)....it's not hard to find any just type in anything dealing with Israel war crimes or Palestine war crimes....there are tons of them eh.... I don't think it really matters which one...all are horrific eh.... | Politics Chat Room 58 People Chatting Similar Conversations |