The Wisdom of Religion? (Page 3)

Su Ni Chang
Su Ni Chang: Blackshoes...

Everyone knows that God loves them if they recognise God as the Creator being. The problem isnt God, it is us. Can we surpass all the hate, bigotry, negativity, and the want for supremecy over our fellow humans to share love with each other.

Bringing God's love into the picture is irrelevent to why we fight and hate on earth. It is like standing in a rainstorm and saying...the sky would be blue if it werent for clouds.

Of course, the sky is ALWAYS blue, just not when you look up while standing in a rainstorm.

I recognise that this is your personal belief, but from an outsider perspective, I see the words, but not the acts. I am sure you can say the same about Islam...and that is understandable.

My perspective is...that Christians have condemned me so many times to hell for being Muslim, that I cant really listen to them anymore and thier proslethyzing. I just shut it off.

So, if your point of addressing me is to make me see Christianity as an alternative to Islam for me personally, when I see the way Christains react to me when I tell them I am Muslim, I might concider an open dialouge on a personal level.

We both know that that wont happen in our lifetime.
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billy_piper
billy_piper: i find islam interesting and esp like that yusef islam/cat stevens approach, they can sing and make music and talk alot about peace i kinda guess youre version of islam is similar - lets hope so OP.

on a broader scale i like and admire the muslim concept of tawheed (look it up guise if you dont know).

whats very disturbing tho is where the islamic world and culture/society is now. howcome militia are murdering hundreds of thousands across the world and the established muslim armies and governments do nothing? muslims are wiping out muslims.

also theres much emphasis in islam to avoid progression, infact its a crime it seems to not stubbornly stick to prehistoric practices.

really who in their right mind honestly wants or thinks its righteous to watch a few often innocent people inc women be executed on a friday after prayers?

islam needs a renaissance imo if its to be successful. if thats even possible, how can anyone approve of any belief system which teaches the annihilation of all other belief systems, its facism or borderline.

im not deliberately singling out islam its just what i know. extreme any religion is just as destructive and dodgy in my book.

i guess thats my thoughts on all religions sofar, they have some cool stuff but all seem to let themselves down with illogical 'faith'
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billy_piper
billy_piper: i went past a dawah stand in london recently and saw some muslim ladies in full nakaab with placards which read 'our prophet saws is more beloved to us than our children'

being a parent i cant equate that logic. surviving life and being around for our children to nurture and protect them is the most logical and natural thing i can think of. i'd even lie thorough my teeth to defend being a parent, my children are the most dear thing in the world to me and i dont think im being stupid saying that.

how can anyone put a story more than a 1000 years old before their children? its madness. if i was in a place like palestine rather than dress my kids in martyr bandanna's id move the fuck out, i would move to israel if it meant my children would prosper.

nothing should come between a mother and her child dont you think?
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Blackshoes
Blackshoes: Dear Carol .Hatred, Greed, and lust is the emeny of all believers . I have no intentions of telling you what to believe or do . I simply tell the truth . What others do is up to themself ,and God .I have not concern whether one Muslim ,buddist, or Christain .I only state what is and will be", as I know it . What one does with the information given is in God hands not mine ..
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Su Ni Chang
Su Ni Chang: Billy posted this.

"...on a broader scale i like and admire the muslim concept of tawheed (look it up guise if you dont know)..."

The Qur'an says this...

"Say (O Muhammad): "Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him." Surah al Ikhlas (surah 112)

This is the concept of Tawheed, or Tawhid. It is the absolute, non compromising oneness of God in Islam. al Ikhlas is the ONLY excepted description of God in Islam...no exceptions.

Billy, please let me humbly correct some of the misunderstanding in your post.

There is no such thing as 'Islamic culture', or an 'Islamic world', or even an 'Islamic country'. There are no 'Muslim armies'. The leaders reflect the population of the nation, and if most of the people are Muslim, the leaders will reflect that.

I was born in a city in which 99 percent of the people are Muslim. It is not an 'Islamic city', nor does it express any other 'culture' other than Chinese. It is like any other modern Chinese city...except there are more Masjids...that is it.

You are asking why Muslims kill each other, and from my point of view I can ask why Americans are slaughtering Americans. If I pointed to a violent city like Chicago, that had 600 murders this year, and contrast that with the city where I was born, I could claim that Americans are violent.. It is a way to use guilt by association to demean and dehumanise the population of people yo dont like.

No nation, scholar, group, or individual speaks for all of Islam. No single culture represents all of Islam, and as you hopefully study more about Islam, you will find it as diverse as every other religion. You will find that there are 'conservative' and 'liberal views of Islam...but just like any other ideology, there are extremes, and those people are the ones who get all of the attention.

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Su Ni Chang
Su Ni Chang: Blackshoes.

You forget the one enemy of mankind that western people seem to never bring up...that is, the need to feel superior over another.

Unfortunatly to me, this is the most offensive of all those 'enemies' of mankind. I am a woman, so, women may understand it, and are subjected to it more than men.

To be really honest, a person who tells me 'they have the truth', over and over again, and when pressed to prove it, they go off into tangents unrealted to the question doest know, he simply repeats.

It is percieved by people who think they are privilaged over others of someone who questions that privilage to be 'out of place', and 'arrogant'. It is also perceived by the person who claims to have the truth that the privilaged are beyond an explaination other than, it is how I say...like it or not.

So you are right, what one does with the information is 'in God's hands', however how the information is given is how it will be recieved.

If you say you have the truth, and when pressed you cant give a scientific fact based explaination backed by non biased sources made available by the claimer of truth...it is still a belief, or an opinion to me.

If you SAY you have the truth above all else and others...then PROVE it.

Yes Balckshoes, prove it using the scientific method. Telling the same opinion over and over again doesnt make it true.
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Su Ni Chang
Su Ni Chang: Piper...alittle humble advice please.

WE will not going to MEMRI or CAMERA (look up thse organizations) our way through this dialouge. This is a dialouge where we express our PERSONAL views. I am sure though, you are a veteran in knowledge of these 'organizations' and thier reason for thier existance. You use thier propaganda.

If it is your intention to smear Palistinians, promote Israel, spread anti Semitc (Arabs are also Semitic people) propaganda, hate Muslims, implying that a woman who dresses in a way you dont like is demeaning to her without consulting her, thinking that 'assimilation' is becoming 'like you; or to demean or dehumanise ANY other people...this forum is not for you. Feel free to create your own.

Thank you for your advanced co operation on this.

Now...you do bring up a good point. The women with the placards, and I agree with you totally. I think they have the wrong idea....but, it is also a major reason why I cant accept the Christian version of religion.

You and I both agree that our children are the most precious things on this earth, and I personally belive that all children are. They are why I still have hope...that someone can be nurtured to bring a cure to a deadly illness, or end the suffering of women, or reform Islam...yes, I said it...but I am already on the short list of al Quid'a to be slaughtered...I just moved up a notch...lol

So I ask Christians all the time...was 'the father' selfish in sending his son to die for thier sin, rather than doing what a parent like me would belive to be the ultimate sacrifice...to take the place of my innocent child to die in his place...and I get no answer.



As you say, and I agree, our children are the most precious thing we have.
(Edited by Su Ni Chang)
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Blackshoes
Blackshoes: Carol ..You aren't reading what I'm writing', Or understand it .I haven't been given anything more than what has already given to all that seek it ..(other than the Holy Spirit) I accept it .Them that don't accept the truth is up to them .. I accept the fact that Jesus has come back from the dead ,and that he sits at the right hand of God .It cannot be proven to them that have no faith in God Word .I can tell ,explain, show, mountains of evidence to you or anyone that wish to believe ,accept, or see it .However :if one rejects , refuses to see beyond their unbelief or not allowed to believe the truth ",due to their same unbelief . It is up to them ',and God . You want scientific proof :when Science cannot nor can prove that God exist . God created all things .He said he did .That's enough for me.Some scienctist say otherwise ,and claim to be able to prove it! Yet Abiogensis is still impossible . Yet they make great claims, and huge asssumpitions ,few ever bother to look beyond they're conclusions.To see how little actual evidence they have .. Man says show me ,and I'll believe ..God says believe, and I'll show you.. God has shown me the truth within his word . As I said before all will be revealed durring that last Judgement .It's up to you to look beyond youre teaching ,and or presuppositions .The fear of God is the begining of wisdom . i only repeat the faith that I've read within Gods word.Anything else is opiinions of Men. let all men be liars .For God is true .
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Su Ni Chang
Su Ni Chang: Blackshoses,

I pass. Islam is for me.
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billy_piper
billy_piper: thanks for the responses carol.

the placards were merely promoting a hadith i think?
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Su Ni Chang
Su Ni Chang: billy...

Talking about the placards was appropriate. Describing the way the women were dressed is irrevent in this dialouge.

I am curious about your use of the word 'promoting' here. Why would the women be 'promoting' a hadith 'you think'?



(Edited by Su Ni Chang)
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duey
duey: As We Remember the time of year, May The Lords Peace be with You All! And May Our Lord Bless You All!
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billy_piper
billy_piper: hi carol.

i disagree, its noteworthy as the ladies were wearing full nakab which as im sure you must know is not obligatory but a recommended sunna practice. for those wondering what that means its basically extra gold star for doing more than required to worship ur god in islam.

they were promoting the teachings of their prophet as a dawah stall or public preaching venue is solely for promoting islam the religion.

im open to suggestions carol as to which word would sum up publicising islam and its prophets teachings.

to summarise, if you want to be an extra good muslim you can do extra stuff to gain gods favor such as follow the non obligatory teachings/ahadith - and as these ladies were doing they made a placard to let everyone know 'our prophet is more dear to us than our children'

those are the teachings of mainstream sunni islam right carol? your own opinion that kids come first before religion is your own opinion and not the recommendation the religion teaches amirite?
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billy_piper
billy_piper: carol wrote 'Piper...alittle humble advice please.

WE will not going to MEMRI or CAMERA (look up thse organizations) our way through this dialouge. This is a dialouge where we express our PERSONAL views. I am sure though, you are a veteran in knowledge of these 'organizations' and thier reason for thier existance. You use thier propaganda.

If it is your intention to smear Palistinians, promote Israel, spread anti Semitc (Arabs are also Semitic people) propaganda, hate Muslims, implying that a woman who dresses in a way you dont like is demeaning to her without consulting her, thinking that 'assimilation' is becoming 'like you; or to demean or dehumanise ANY other people...this forum is not for you. Feel free to create your own.

Thank you for your advanced co operation on this...

As you say, and I agree, our children are the most precious thing we have...'

^ive never heard of memri or camera so doubt highly im utilising their 'propaganda'. may i draw your attention to another quote from your fingers please?

'You forget the one enemy of mankind that western people seem to never bring up...that is, the need to feel superior over another.

Unfortunatly to me, this is the most offensive of all those 'enemies' of mankind. I am a woman, so, women may understand it, and are subjected to it more than men'

in one frankly amazing statement youve totally contradicted yourself and insulted multiple countries citizens and shown yourself to be sexist.

and btw one certain individual does represent islam on the whole, and if anyone can guess who that man was gets a wireclub badge...
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Su Ni Chang
Su Ni Chang: Duey...

Thank you very much for your kindness and patience. As I look around the American city I am in now, I see people running about shopping. Christmas trees up, houses blinking with lights of seasonal decoration. Where I am from in China, most of the people are Muslim. We dont see this kind of enthusiasm for this time of year.

I look at what you posted, and I wonder if the real meaning of Christmas is lost. I see Rudolph and Snowman, and Santa Claus of course, and it is all well and good...but very few reminders of Jesus, and very few mentions of why there is Christmas.

So...although I am not Christian, I will hope for the spirit of peace and hope that Jesus brought to this world will come to full bloom when he came to us...born of a righteous and pure woman... the manifestation of God...to give us a message.

I hope that one day, we can truely understand the message that Jesus delivered, and live it.

I pray for that.
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Su Ni Chang
Su Ni Chang: billy...

If you are going to 'teach Islam'...please feel free to teach Islam in another forum.

anyway, you posted this...

"...i disagree, its noteworthy as the ladies were wearing full nakab which as im sure you must know is not obligatory but a recommended sunna practice. for those wondering what that means its basically extra gold star for doing more than required to worship ur god in islam....they were promoting the teachings of their prophet as a dawah stall or public preaching venue is solely for promoting islam the religion..."

First, wearing nikab is NOT required, nor is is more 'virtuous' then being naked in Islam...simply, being Muslim is not clothing, but the heart, hands, feet, and life of the woman. Just as a Christian can sit in a church, read the Bible, sing the hymns, and praise God in thier own way every time someone is watching them...they can personally harbour bigotry and hate for the woman wearing the nikab and try to justify that hate by implying evil about her, and to demonise those like her.

I personally dont wear them, but to me giving a piece of cloth power enough to make you fear a person, and to pre judge what they might or might not be is rediculous.

What those women wear or dont wear, regardless of thier reason is not relevent to the intention of THIS forum. That was, and still is my point. It becomes for you a tangent, a distraction, and a way to control the conversation to insert bigotry and proaganda into this forum at the expence and time of good, thought provoking dialouge.

Oh...and all of that 'stuff' you promote as 'Islam' in like 'it is extra credit', or is is 'sunnah'...that is MERMI and CAMERA smear of Islam. So you 'claim' you dont know...but no one 'claims' to get thier information on Islam from this intentional misinformation sources.

I will belive you 'dont know' that you are using thier proaganda, but please refrain from 'teaching Islam' when you havent PERSONALLY studied from reputable Islamic sources...and not second hand sources.

Remember though that NO individual, scholar, nation, writer, cleric, group or organization speaks for all of Islam when you cite sources.

(Edited by Su Ni Chang)
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davidk14
davidk14: .

Regarding the title of this thread, “The Wisdom of Religion?”



Mob in Pakistan sets mentally unstable man on fire after he was accused of burning Koran
Published December 22, 2012
Associated Press


KARACHI, Pakistan – A mob in southern Pakistan stormed a police station to seize a mentally unstable Muslim man accused of burning a copy of Islam's holy book, beat him to death, and then set his body afire, police said Saturday.


The case is likely to raise further concerns about the country's harsh blasphemy laws, which can result in a death sentence or life in prison to anyone found guilty. Critics say an accusation or investigation alone can lead to deaths, as people take the law into their own hands and kill those accused of violating it. Police stations and even courts have been attacked by mobs.


Local police official Bihar-ud-Din said police arrested the man on Friday after being informed by residents that he had burned a Koran inside a mosque where he had been staying for a night.
An angry mob of more than 200 people then broke into the police station in the southern town of Dadu and took the accused man, who they say was under questioning. Din said police tried their best to save the man's life but were unable to stop the furious crowd.


He said that police had arrested 30 people for suspected involvement in the attack, while the head of the local police station and seven officers had been suspended.


Past attempts by governments in predominantly Muslim Pakistan to review these laws have met with violent opposition from hardline Islamist parties.



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Su Ni Chang
Su Ni Chang: Daivd...we dont post ancedotes in this room. Thank you for you wisdom from now on. This has no more to do with the topic of 'the wisdom of religion', than the shooting in the school has to do with 'the wisdom of guns'.

This is a quote from your article.

"...Past attempts by governments in predominantly Muslim Pakistan to review these laws have met with violent opposition from hardline Islamist parties..."

Just like there is no reason to post what women wear, there is no reason to discuss 'predominatly Muslim Pakistan" because it doesnt show in the article where...the people of Pakistan agree with what happened, particpated in what happened, or act like this.

You might notice that the reason we know about the murder of this man is...those who commited the crime were ARRESTED, and treated like the criminals they are, which seems to go against what the article is trying to imply about Pakistani people in general.

Please try not to post ancedotes and 'imply' that every Muslim agrees or acts in this fashion.
(Edited by Su Ni Chang)
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XWhiteandBlue
XWhiteandBlue: Evry religion has its own set of practitioners that have twisted its teachings, and practive a very effed-up version of what could be a very beautiful, spiritual, uplifting and beneficial practice.

We have to accept that evry group of people has its "black sheep" and blemishes throughout history.

However, when we, rather than clarifying why those positions are not accurate representations of our faith, (or innacurate statements altogether) Immediately fallback into a "defensive stance"of calling the comments "propaganda" "talking points" from Memri, Camera, Hasbara, or whatever/wherever else may be the "demon du jour" we "short circuit" any intellectual exchange that may shed light and th posibility of growth.

Talking points & propaganda have a very notable weakness, and an antidote that is very readily available.

It is called open dialogue & truth.
I applaud evryone's effort in having a civil dialogue, but please, let's not neuter the intellectual exchange at teh alter of "political correctness" Vigorous disagreement is the lifeblod of intellectually stimulating debate.
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Su Ni Chang
Su Ni Chang: White...

There is no 'intelectual exchange in repeating propaganda. That was the point of having an honest dialough in one's own words...not quoting media, no deciding what women wear makes then bad, because all of that is learned in the west as a pejoritive to stifle honest dialouge.

Alot of people will simply stop dialouging because they have not learned anything else, other than the media spin, which is the same mantra of CAMERA and MEMRI.

Understand that those who read media about Islam, Pakistan, Iran, Israel, and other places for the most part dont have a 'vested interest' in shading, minimising, and purposeful omission of all the relevent parts to a conflict.

So...if media (like the article posted by billy) is purposefully omitting, implying, or catering to the discourse of bigotry and hatred in a country in a war...not againt people...but a war against an ideology they dont agree with...then it is propaganda.

So again white...calling propaganda what it is, and denouncing it straight away is the right thing to do.

Oh...and by the way, on a Chinese social media site...I am involved in the same question, and it is a very vigouous, and enlightening conversation...without media, or ideological engineering.
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davidk14
davidk14: .

Carol said:

Daivd...we dont post anecdotes in this room.


David responds:

An anecdote is always presented as based in a real incident involving actual persons, whether famous or not, usually in an identifiable place. So, no real incidents, no real people you say? Hum.

What I was pointing out which you just refuse to even consider, that religion, that people, that some people, get so nuts about the hysteria from people, regarding a book.

They actually set a guy on fire because of a book.

Just imagine something.

You are walking down the street, you see a guy that seems mentally challenged, setting a book on fire. You go nuts, go get a can of gasoline, and throw it on the guy, set the guy on fire and then jump up and down in excitement that you just punished someone for burning a book. This is how many people in your religion feel about the book of ideas you believe in. Sure wasn’t wisdom now was it that ignited hundreds of men to beat and then set the guy on fire.



Carol said:

This is a quote from your article.

"...Past attempts by governments in predominantly Muslim Pakistan to review these laws have met with violent opposition from hardline Islamist parties..."

Just like there is no reason to post what women wear, there is no reason to discuss 'predominatly Muslim Pakistan" because it doesnt show in the article where...the people of Pakistan agree with what happened, particpated in what happened, or act like this.


David responds:


Are you dense? You actually think this is a one time, one off incident? Women all the time are brutalized in Pakistan if you compare them to American standards of how a woman should be treated. If you are brought up in that type of cultural environment and know nothing else, then it’s perfectly reasonable for a women to accept being abused.



Carol said:

You might notice that the reason we know about the murder of this man is...those who committed the crime were ARRESTED, and treated like the criminals they are, which seems to go against what the article is trying to imply about Pakistani people in general.

David responds:

You will notice in the article that police were arrested since they did nothing to try and stop the murder. He had been arrested for burning a book. The mob came in to the police station, took the prisoner, and burned him alive.


Carol said:

Please try not to post ancedotes and 'imply' that every Muslim agrees or acts in this fashion.



David responds:


Just pointing out that “wisdom” is a fine line between right and wrong, good and bad. What one sees in a book and considers it wisdom, another can murder for the exact same book.

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XWhiteandBlue
XWhiteandBlue: [quote] "There is no 'intelectual exchange in repeating propaganda. That was the point of having an honest dialough in one's own words...not quoting media, no deciding what women wear makes then bad, because all of that is learned in the west as a pejoritive to stifle honest dialouge.

Alot of people will simply stop dialouging because they have not learned anything else, other than the media spin, which is the same mantra of CAMERA and MEMRI." [/quote]

Actually, no, if you KNOW an argument to be propaganda, you dismantle the statement with a convincing argument. Merely calling something "propaganda" doesn't make it so, any more than Slassian calling me a "donkey" make me bray and graze on a pasture. (merely Labeling something doesn't change its nature)

Saying "we will not discuss it/ it doesn't exist" is like discovering an infected cut and simpley covering it up, without cleaning it & dressing it... it will fester and continue to hurt the patient.

Facing the "ugly reality" that ALL our faiths have moments in their past (and aspects in their present) that are not very flattering, is one of the ways e move towards righteousness.

God (in however form you may choose to call him) understands we are merely human, and therefore not perfect followers.

I'm pretty sure he is big enough that our failures as his imperfect followers, DON'T diminish who he is, even when openly admit & discuss them.
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billy_piper
billy_piper: carol with respect youre making this up as you go along. i have studied islam in mosques from numerous scholars and imams including the moderate cat stevens/yusef islam and more hardline ones such as ibn taymiah.

you call yourself a muslim yet you unashamedly make your own rules up as you go along in this forum on what is and isnt islamic.

its mind bottling.

one person who does speak for the entire religion wholly is muhammad and his companions, which of course is and has been hijacked by scholars and imams over the last 1000 years plus and these people claim as theyre teaching muhammads religion to be qualified to speak for islam as a whole. personally i thik like most religions these people cherry pick and interpret as they like the deen.

but what youre doing is similar yet you arent backing up what you claim with any proof.

carol have you read imam bukharis books? and the ahadiths regarding fard and sunah practices?
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billy_piper
billy_piper: you cant really claim islam is this and that, contradicting hadith and the work of well known scholars without having any proof.

you said children come before religio yet the religion and muhammad teaches otherwise.

youre not teaching islam correctly or giving us an accurate view of it.
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billy_piper
billy_piper: it is refreshing tho to read your inaccurate posts and i hope established islam will someday have a renaissance and move more toward a more modern less strict ideology.

unfortunately caroli think youre going to have a hard time convincing the establishment as they will call your interpretation innovation and bidah which is seen as a cancer destroying the religion when in fact the bidah might be its only chance of survival.

im waiting for a religion that doesnt want to dominate the world or cause wars and bigotry.

muslims are forbidden to marry buddists too right? and before judgemet day the muslims will fight the jews etc? thats the reality the religion teaches not one of peace.

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