The Wisdom of Religion? Su Ni Chang: This thread is an open discussion about the wisdom...or non wisdom of religion. What are your thoughts? Is religion a good idea, or bad, and why. I will participate in this forum. I am curious to know what your thoughts are, and why you have them. All opinions are valid here. There are some rules though I want to set. This is an open forum. Anyone can participate and any religious topic is allowed about any religions, or non beliefs. This forum is not to promote one belief over another. You should not call something a fact unless you can prove it. Because it is in a Holy Book is not actually proof that it is true, false, or a lie over and above someone else's beliefs. If we claim something is TURE (and is different from something belived or an opinion), FALSE, or a LIE, we must prove it with unbiased sources, such as scientific journals, and non bias news reporting sources. We will not use Wikipedia (because it can be edited to express bias) political or religious webpages (especially those pages that are deliberatly designed ot be against other religions) hate sites (such as JihadWatch) We will not demean or dehumanise another person, his or her ethnicity, his nation of origin, or his religion. Thank you for your advanced cooperation in these matters. I hope you find this forum a learning experiecne. (Edited by Su Ni Chang)  davidk14: . Hello Carol, To start with, any religion on this planet, has been man made. Whether it is Islam, Judaism, Christianity or any other religion. Religion did not exist before the creation of this planet 4 billion years ago. .  Blackshoes: The Bible says It !! I believe IT !!! That settles IT !! What the others say and believe ;May have wisedom , and merit ,However: the'res only one God ",and Only one truth . Jesus Proved it . Su Ni Chang: David...thanks for taking my offer. I really apreciate you doing this. Is this your objection to Islam, that it is 'created by man'? OK, first, lets get a few houscleaning rules out of the way. This disclaimer david is not directed to you personally, but it is to help us and others with a little bit more of an open mind discuss religion rationally, and logically. This is not a form to pit one religion over another. If you have PROOF other than 'The Bible says it....", that your beliefs are true over and above others, or people who dont belive in God at all, please present your arguement in a scientific concept...showing FACTS with citations from unbiased sources. For example, if you claim that science, or study validates your religion, then you will be able to show sources from scientific journals, debated in the scientific community...and so on. If it is your intention to promote your religion over someone else, demean or dehumanise people for thier beliefs or non beliefs, or 'speak for God', or any 'facsimillie' of God, .please create your own forum, and you are certianly welcome to do that. Thank you in advance for your respect of all, and dignity of all, even if you disagree with them. davidk14: . Carol, Have I said anything against Islam? I have said things about those who 'twist' religion. I do not believe that God has anything to do with man made religion. Like i said earlier, there was no religion before this planet existed. Actually, there was no religion just 50,000 years ago. Humans have been around just for a little while considering how old our planet is. . . Su Ni Chang: david..you wrote this. "...To start with, any religion on this planet, has been man made. Whether it is Islam, Judaism, Christianity or any other religion. Religion did not exist before the creation of this planet 4 billion years ago..." I dont think we have a problem with the 'created in 7 days' of religion with me. I am Muslim, was raised Muslim, I belive in the ONE God, and belive that ONE God created what we know, but I dont know how, and belive that science can tell us how. I am open to science theory about the universe, and human beginnings. So, we shouldnt start out with those kinds of misconceptions about belivers vs non belivers. You posted that 'any religion on this planet has been man made' You also stated that "religion did not exist before the creation of this planet 4 billion years ago' Well david, I have a different take on this 'man made' thing. I belive that God is sovergn and unique. I belive that there is no 'description of God' humans can fathom. Some have created images, or worship men, but I dont belive those are rightful depictions of the ONE God...but people are allowed to have them. I belive that thoughout the history of mankind, God has been sending 'messangers'. God sends these messangers in the image of the people, and culture he is tring to reach, and sends messangers that people can relate to in thier own cultural context, and within the concepts the people can understand. We dont know all of these messangers. In Islam we believe there have been thousands of messangers before Muhammad, and all those messangers are valid...as we begin to talk about the Abrahamic faiths. Islam accepts other people's messangers. Muslims only use the parts of other messangers that are confirmed by the Qur'an...the only unquestioned source in Islam. Even the Hadiths can be questioned...because they are not sacred, but some people do belive they are. I come from a madh hab (a school of thought...or fiqh) where you are taught to question things...including hadiths...that dont have a referance in the Qur'an. So...in a way I agree with you, that 'religion is man made'. I can see your point in that religion is used to promote and justify political and ideological 'social engineering' and is used to promote war, bigotry, hate and discource between people. Su Ni Chang: david... I am so sorry for being sloppy. I did not mean for that first post to apply to you, and perhaps I should have made it very clear, that I will not tolarate hatred, bigotry, demeaning and dehumanising of someone else because of thier views...even if I disagree strongly with them. That post was directed at the '...The Bible says it..." kind of person. I dont want any of that in any forum I sponser. That post was not in any way directed at you personally. I am so sorry and shameful for even implying such thing. Please forgive. davidk14: . Carol said: I belive that God is sovergn and unique. I belive that there is no 'description of God' humans can fathom. Some have created images, or worship men, but I dont belive those are rightful depictions of the ONE God...but people are allowed to have them. David responds: I agree, I believe God is unique and that there is no description of God that humans can fathom. Carol said: I belive that thoughout the history of mankind, God has been sending 'messangers'. God sends these messangers in the image of the people, and culture he is tring to reach, and sends messangers that people can relate to in thier own cultural context, and within the concepts the people can understand. David responds: However, I do not believe God sends messengers[with messages]. I just do not believe it. If someone walked up to me and said they are a messenger of God, well…. “People who have auditory / hallucinations or "voices in their heads" are referred to as schizophrenic, which is commonly mistaken for MPD or multiple personality disorder. It is mostly characterized by abnormalities in the understanding or expression of reality caused by an increased dopamine activity in certain parts of the brain. Certain effect of the disorder includes audio and visual hallucination, paranoia and odd delusions. One of the more common effects of the hallucination is the manifestation of an entity that appears or speaks to the schizophrenic patient. "Voices in the head" is a misconception; the brain is telling the person that they are actually hearing them. So they hear voices that aren't there, but are actually in their head.” . Su Ni Chang: david... Yes, some do have hallucinations and are mentally challanged. I agree with you. However, if this is your answer for all of those who are messagers of God, then there is nothing more to this conversation. I dont know how to change your mind on this, and wont try. It is a perspective and I thank you for sharing that with me. davidk14: . Well, when or if God contacts me and gives me a message to share with all of humanity, you will be the first I will contact. .  LiptonCambell: "please present your arguement in a scientific concept...showing FACTS with citations from unbiased sources." "I belive that thoughout the history of mankind, God has been sending 'messangers'." Anyone see a contradiction? Blackshoes: Please state youre case of bais persupposition opinions of them that know not GOD ?? I don't need to prove the facts you'll soon see the truth", as all that have ever been born will ,at Judgement Day ..You'd see the major lack of knowledge of all them that knew not on that day Su Ni Chang: Lipton...If you read the whole comment, you would have understood that I was writing about demaning other people's beliefs or non beliefs. If you state something is TRUE, then you must prove it in the scientific format...especially to refute someone else you claim is FALSE, or LYING. If you actually have READ the posts...you would have noticed that the quotation you posted was part of a paragraph that starts with 'I belive..." Su Ni Chang: Blackshoes... We will all find out on Judgement Day...however, this comment thread is not about judgement of others, or determining what how God will judge someone else. This is not a forum in which we pit non belivers against believers. This is about the wisdom, or non wisdom of religion...nothing else.. Su Ni Chang: Blackshoes... He was quoting one of my comments. I thought you were posting to that comment.  XWhiteandBlue: Religion, contains wisdom. (starting with the basis for what is considered "morality" in most societies) and useful rules for the treating of the fellow man. "Thow shall not commit Murder" Honor your Mother & your Father Don't desire your nehibor's spouse ...are all good rules for a civil society. However, Man's interpretation of religion cantains as well the seeds of Man's vices as well. Prejudice religiously motivated terrorism Hate towards those that are different/ don't share the same value system. etc... Ultimately, I cannot proove God's existance, but I find that religion, attempts to connect (those of us who believe) to that God with whoom we seek a relationship with. Philosofically; Religion attempts to answer the "why" of the universe. Were we (and our ability to reason and be self- concious) meerely an "accident of chance & happenstance" on a bio- genetic level? Or is there a greater purpose to our existance? The problems with religion start cropping up, when it is attempted to be used as a means to control/manipulate a population. However, when you realize, that "belief"cannot be forced on someone. that all you can do is share what you believe to be true, in the hopes that your belief is good and profitable to whom you share it with, then religion is about benefitting your fellow man. (In my case ultimately for the glory of God) and then, religion becomes a beautiful thing! XWhiteandBlue: However, I do make a distinction between "religion" (the codified practices of one particular religious sect, which follows a certain set of beliefs) And being a "Believer" (having a personal realtionship with the Divine, in my case, God as I believe him to be, best/most accurately described by the Christian faith) Su Ni Chang: White... You are a beliver within the Christian genre. I am one who doesnt actually belive I need to 'defend' Islam (my personal choice of religion)..and to me there is no argument between I and you. I accept the differences we may have on dogma and ritual, but I dont belive you are wrong, nor I. I have heard many Christians and Muslims say 'Well, if the (one side) are right, than it means (by default) that means the (other side) are wrong. I say...'Many paths, same destination'. I personally dont argue with Christians about thier beliefs. I dont argue the existance of God with those who dont belive. (Edited by Su Ni Chang) Blackshoes: Carol . The Bible states that theres only one way to heaven ",and thats through Jesus Christ .If there was another way.. I'm sure Jesus would have mention it, ..Yes :other religions have wisdom, love ,and many good virtues ..However : There can be only one way to heaven as far as I know ....After all no one else rose from the dead to prove his words ... We'll all find out on Judgement day', one way or another .Peace be with you Su Ni Chang: Blackshoes.... That is my point exactly. "Many roads, same destination" 'The Bible says..." or, 'the Qur'an says...." are not proofs that in the context of this conversation that no one else, ourside of Islam or Christianity wont see a good outcome in the 'afterlife' (you mentioned go to heaven as one of those positive outcomes) What about a man who...say lives in China, who has never heard of Christianity, and his lack of knowledge is not his fault. He is virtuous and good, kind and well liked, and known for his genorisity. Does God punish him because he was born in a place where he doesnt hear the Christian message? Dont you think that would be a cruel thing to do...to literally condemn a man to eternal torment because he was never exposed to what you belive is the only way to heaven? To me, Islam is the middle path. It is not a checklist religion. I am responisble for my own words and deeds, and the only sin I am held to, and judged on are my own. The goal isnt to be perfect, but to be conscience of God at all times, and to do my best to obey the will of God. I will be judged personally, and there is no 'corporate badge' I need to have before judgement. I will be judged on my intentions much more than deeds and words, and the judge will know, and take account of my limitations strengths and knowledge. Islam is easy.... On the earth, although I am Muslim right down to every molecule of my body, I will use the good virtues to get along with my fellow travellers on the earth, regardless of thier beliefs, or non beliefs, even if they are in fear of Islam because of the public discourse, because of what they see in the media (understandable) whether they disagree or totally dispise Islam, or anything else about me. By saying 'there can be only one way to heaven as far as I know', you have codified your beliefs to yourself. I cant argue with that. (Edited by Su Ni Chang) | Philosophy Chat Room 8 People Chatting Similar Conversations |
