Free will? What do you think? (Page 2)

CoIin
CoIin: @ CoffeMonster

You seem like a very wise lady to me

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Zanjan
Zanjan: Colin: "Do you ever think you might be wrong?"

Wrong about what - facts? Nope. As far as opinions, I don't take a position on subjects I know nothing about, unlike the speil into fluffy opacity by the windbag you quoted.

Academic arrogance is a product of unrestrained Ego, something he conveniently omitted from his oh- so- shallow assessment of human nature.

And Colin, you may have noticed I'm capable of making my own observations.....I don't need to be a name-dropper.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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CoIin
CoIin: Let me put it this way...

Man, on the other hand, has sixteen natures; therefore, he’s endowed with Santa Claus and 15 tooth fairies – the former is base, the latters are dental. Since these natures have distinctly different traits of their own, man cannot display both simultaneously; however, he can decide which he allows to take precedence. To do that, he has to turn his face towards his desires (what he loves most), which means his back is turned to the other.

The Tooth Fairy is what sets man in a different kingdom of creation than those of animals and plants; and the Tooth Fairy is the power by which we move from one of our natures to the other.

Many think Free Will is nothing but the *ability* to make an intellectual choice for one’s self, or as a *permission*, as if it’s one of the Human Rights. Others see it as an *event* - any personal decision that isn’t influenced by conditions ie. duress, incentive, fear, ulterior motive or pressure of cultural norms. I think that’s a description of an altruistic act, not a faculty.

Free Will, in religious terms, is something the Tooth Fairy has bestowed as a *power* no other creature possesses – so, it’s a greater gift than the faculty of determination. You see, as power that every human has the potential to display, it seems to be latent in some folks. This power cuts the tethers that bind us to our base nature -> our human limitations. By it, humans rise above ego to true nobility, reflecting the divine traits of the spiritual reality of a true man.


- my dentist ( who is stark raving mad)


repent while there's still time and get braces fitted
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calybonos
(Post deleted by calybonos 9 years ago)
Zanjan
Zanjan: Colin, if you're going to plagiarize, try not to take credit for ALL my sentences. That's just intellectual sloppiness

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Zanjan
Zanjan: "As far as compassion,cooperation,.............other species have been shown to not only possess these traits"

Yeah, that's called instinct. All sentient creatures are pre-programed with the tools to survive but like ants, they don't understand the why of their social structure, only that they must. It's impulsive.....you would need to prove they know of another way.

"could be argued that some species better mankind in living with the world"

Yes, because they have no choice. Nature is one expression of the Will of God.

That man has a choice, and foolishly makes the wrong one, proves that he's dependent upon the higher Spirit of his nature. Man has much more power of intelligence than animals so he can do more with it. Animals cant manipulate their environment so they can never be as destructive as man.

So, man's intelligence being crippled and dragged down by his lower nature ie: impulsiveness, jealousies, greed etc, has him behaving worse than the beasts in the field. That's why he needs training and education to learn how to use his intelligence well - knowledge doesn't come naturally.

Don't worry, there will always be humans who will respond to their higher nature enough they're empowered to do what the others cant. These will succeed as the defective units die off and the next generation is spawned by the successful. Notice how the many the previous species of man died out, never to return.






(Edited by Zanjan)
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CoIin
CoIin: Zan... happy new year
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calybonos
(Post deleted by calybonos 9 years ago)
calybonos
(Post deleted by calybonos 9 years ago)
Dennae
Dennae:
Maybe we only have the 'free will' to engage in decision-making and consequential thinking.

Instinctively, if perhaps we did want to bonk the neighbour, if we did not have decision-making, cost/benefit consequential thinking, we would just act on impulse or instinct.

Same would go for any criminal activity. If the person believes they will get away with it - the cost/benefit analysis is in their favour. Having said that - consequential thinking is a facility that criminals seem to lack in.

Maybe our 'free will' is not a right or freely given, but a responsibility (social?) not to hurt ourselves or ones we care for.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Calybonos, I'm not wrong - all those good qualities in the animals are coded in their genetic makeup, so are all their bad traits - these are locked in features.

Even a plant gets upset and sends out chemical signals when its neighbour plant is destroyed. As I said, all these traits constitute the means for the creature to survive.

"Man on the other hand wages war for profit,and also kills for sport and pleasure......Cheats,lies,steals and considers himself better than his fellow creatures and defends his "sins......."

So, you've never observed chimpanzees in the wild! You've never heard of male lions killing all the cubs in a pride? I think you're taking a one-sided view of the nature of beasts.

Man has all these animal traits too but the balance isn't locked in. Due to man's intelligence, he can express any of these qualities in a greatly magnified state.

"Conveniently freeing him from guilt over all his actions "

For some reason, you're making a very wild assumption that man cannot feel guilt. This isn't true. When he knows he's done wrong, he's well aware of guilt but ignores it. Man can jettison reason any time his desires are more powerful. This doesn't mean he forgets because all his memories are still in the subconscious. If he lets himself fall too far, he can never get back up again.

Some call that darkness and evil God's punishment but I think God doesn't have to lift a finger as we're pretty good at punishing ourselves.

"Maybe our 'free will' is......... a responsibility (social?) not to hurt ourselves or ones we care for."

I'd classify that as instinct as well - man can over-ride it by ignoring it. Only humans can commit suicide, which is against nature. Some fish and insects may eat their young but man, by his nature, doesn't. Man feels social responsibility as a pressure from the tribe at large in the same way the pack animal so, one needs to show what's different in man. For example:

Captain Colin is on his ship with his Dentist, his cat and a chimpanzee. The ship is sinking and Captain Colin will go down with it as a matter of honour while the Dentist makes off with the only lifeboat The animals will disembark and swim. Perhaps God will touch the Dentist's wisdom tooth so he'll swing back and collect the animals.

Happy New Year Colin......may your ship not sink.......








(Edited by Zanjan)
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calybonos
(Post deleted by calybonos 9 years ago)
orkanen
orkanen: Eh, Zanjan? You're clearly showing signs of guilt here. Knowing deep down you're being dishonest with yourself, you stomp around even louder to compensate, and hopefully, deafen the cries of your conscience in the process. We're on to you.

A simple proof of free will, or lack thereof, could be medication and how it affects the mind. Someone with ADHD can show uncontrollable rage at times, someone with ADD can procrastrinate equally much, yet with correct doses of methamphetamine, the same people will act "normally". There are many other psychoactive drugs out there, capable of altering behaviours.

'Appy new year, everyone, including Piglet.
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CoIin
CoIin: LOL @ piglet
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Zanjan
Zanjan: "We're on to you."

Horsefeathers!

That's Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder - I have a son born with that and I refused to dose him up on drugs. No such thing as uncontrollable rage - it stops because he makes it stop. It's just a loud outburst that lasts for a very short time....they can manage it. Neurological damage doesn't affect power of Free Will.

I taught him how to deal with his shortcomings so he could find his own way around his organic glitches. He did, and went on to have a very successful, happy, peaceful and stable life.

I mean no offense to the parents who chose to drug their kids; I know it takes a lot of time and personal sacrifice to teach a child to be strong, confident and in control of himself. I just don't prescribe to the shut him up so he doesn't bounce off walls method. Then again, I'm his birth parent.

Foster kids with FASD have many other problems besides ADD so, in some cases of older children, meds may be beneficial until they reach adulthood. That doesn't affect power of Free Will either.

Happy New year Ork........may you be much less of a sourpuss this year




(Edited by Zanjan)
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CoIin
CoIin: @ Dennae

Having unattractive neighbors helps
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orkanen
orkanen: Zanjan: You missed the point again, so I'll spell it out to you. Medication, or drugs as you call them, alters behaviour, proving yet again that free will is but an illusion. Yes, with ADD and ADHD, you can train away some of the symptoms, you can also minimize the symptoms with a suitable diet. But no matter what you do, you're still stuck with an attention disorder that can be treated with medicine. What happens to your son if you feed him a nice dose of dextrose and submit him to stress?

Maybe you used the wrong words to relay your message, but raising a child is no personal sacrifice. It is instead a personal joy to watch them grow up and reach their potential.

I've long understood that you're against alcohol. I agree with you fully that there's an excess consumption of such things here on Earth. A friend of mine finally understood that he had to quit entirely. He just can't stop once he begins drinking. Not me though. I drink, get drunk, fall down, no problem. Jokes aside. Some humans have a desire, a need to consume drugs in some form or another. It is called self medication. It's there to compensate for a need, be it of chemical nature or otherwise. Solve the need and you'll remove the abuse.

Thank you Zanjan. I'll try not to be a sourpuss this year, but I wish for you to do something in return. Something that will make it a lot easier, not only for me, but everyone here. Be honest with yourself. You're not infallible, you don't know everything, but you don't have to prove yourself to anyone here either. I'm not afraid to say "I don't know", if there's something I'm not quite certain about, nor should you be.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Orkanen, your observations prove nothing. Since you don't describe how behaviour changes under the influence of meds, how can you demonstrate it eliminates free will?

".....an attention disorder that can be treated with medicine"

False. Medication doesn't do anything for ADD - it's still there and always will be. The medication simply relaxes the individual.

There's no way to eliminate stress from one's life - some of it is good, some is overwhelmingly negative - one deals with it with brain power, which doesn't have anything to do with what you eat unless you've not eaten any food for days. A child has to be taught how to use his own brain instead of relying on the brains around him.

The parent who makes no personal sacrifice for their child, especially one who has high needs, is a negligent individual - if their kid gives them trouble, they deserve it! Poor kid though, who got the really short end of the stick.

Free Will has nothing to do with physical addition. Have you ever heard anyone saying "Oh, I've decided to get addicted, whether anybody likes it or not, I will!" And have you ever heard anyone saying " I decided to stop my physical addiction; it worked instantly!"

"Solve the need and you'll remove the abuse."

I'm wondering what your experience is with addiction, since you seem to be talking in circles. Addiction = the body's need for the drug. Carefully remove the drug, and the body will lose its dependency, guaranteed.

I understand where you're going with this but it's still in circles. If you remove one sin, another will roll in to fill the gap, like working with a sand castle. All good intentions but wrong method.

Orkanen, let me make this perfectly clear: I will NOT do anything for you. I'm slave to no man!

" I'm not afraid to say "I don't know", if there's something I'm not quite certain about"

If there's something you're not quite certain about, why in tarnation would you bother to claim anything about it???

Many have made grave errors on their certainty of a thing; in reality, it was just stubborn, egotistical denial. To wit: the pilot who crashed a Korean cargo plane, killing everyone on board because he was the boss, and only the boss knows best.

You'd have to prove to me you aren't fearless before I'd believe it.

















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calybonos
(Post deleted by calybonos 9 years ago)
Zanjan
Zanjan: Can you tell me what Beethoven was thinking?

I always had a hard time locating the idea in his music until the Beatles set me straight with their song "Because" - the melody was written with the chords of Moonlight Sonata played backwards.
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orkanen
orkanen: I can see how you, raising one son with ADHD, knows more than professionals that went to school to learn this, and not being able to practice what they've learned until they pass the exams, then handling multiple patients on a daily basis, and documenting their work in the process. Is ADD/ADHD something someone pulled out of their arse one beautiful spring morning, or is it a condition that relates to certain observable traits? Did you diagnose your own son, or was that done by one of the above mentioned professionals? Let's see some honesty here for a change.

Methamphetamine treats the conditions of ADD and ADHD, just like insuline treats diabetes. You're being dishonest again, Zanjan.

I fully understand you don't like facts that go against your beliefs. You've told me time and time again. Denying them doesn't render them invalid though. I'm sorry, isn't denial also dishonest?

The parent who feels having to care for their own offspring to be a sacrifice is self sentered.

Do you know you had to learn everything you know? Why is that?

"Solve the need and you'll remove the abuse."
Context. You're being dishonest as usual. Better luck next time.

"Orkanen, let me make this perfectly clear: I will NOT do anything for you. I'm slave to no man!"
When did asking you to be honest, translate to 'slaving for a man'? You claim you did well in English at school, but I have yet to see proof of that. If I were you, I'd ask for my school money back.

"If there's something you're not quite certain about, why in tarnation would you bother to claim anything about it???"
I don't know your reasons for doing so, yet you've done it in every single post I've read so far. Why are you asking me for your reasons?

The rest of what you wrote made no sense to me, in case you feel the desire to claim I only addressed a portion of what you wrote.
(Edited by orkanen)
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Illuminatist
Illuminatist: orkanen: I can see how you, raising one son with ADHD, knows more than professionals that went to school to learn this, and not being able to practice what they've learned until they pass the exams, then handling multiple patients on a daily basis, and documenting their work in the process. Is ADD/ADHD something someone pulled out of their arse one beautiful spring morning, or is it a condition that relates to certain observable traits? Did you diagnose your own son, or was that done by one of the above mentioned professionals? Let's see some honesty here for a change.




I vote they extracted it from their arses


Does anyone BESIDES me seem to notice how many new disorders are popping up over the recent years?

Are these even REAL "disorders"? Or are they simply angles for cash-cows for the medical industry?

Even further, IF some of them are "real", where are they coming from, as some have only popped up in recent years.

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Corwin
Corwin: Speaking of disorders.... where has Colin been lately?
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orkanen
orkanen: Illuminatist: I'm guessing on a regrouping of disorders, adding some, subtracting others. They've been here as long as humans have existed, but have either not been considered disorders by themselves, or suspected to be a part of a different disorder.
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DawnGurl
DawnGurl: Corvin: Colin lost his pizza with sausage and mushroom topping. It seems he lost 'dis' order with 'dat' order and now both orders are gone.It happens. Maybe he'll pull it outta his arse.
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