Somali pirates introspec: Capture, transport to World Council trial.....suspend sentence Hang them on spot Assess national contributions because their childhood tough....  StuckInTheSixties: It depends on whether or not you want to live in a civilized society and nations of law. You might be comfortable slithering around down there in the moral gutter along with those Somali pirates. I'm not. Why don't you cite the specific case you're referring to so that one might check for facts instead of your ranting rhetoric? introspec: Thought Somali piracy common knowledge among even half assed informed. But, there have been multiple hundreds of attacks on merchant ships, about 1/4 successful highjackings within several hundred miles of Somalia by heavily armed Somalian pirates. Murders of crews and millions of dollars ransom have been extracted by pirates. Choices stated referred to punishment when civilized navies captured the pirates. Two choices obviously ironic. Suppose STS either ignorant or impaired by statement of "ranting rhetoric" StuckInTheSixties: Of course the existence of Somali pirates are common knowledge. Those fyxz$*@ cause havoc. (shrugs) Oh. I get it. You're not really ranting about Somali pirates. You're ranting about the "World Council," whatever that is. Actually, I suppose you're ranting about the UN. Can you share with readers which Somali pirates received "suspended sentences" by a UN International Criminal Tribunal? You're confusing two issues that are unrelated. That can happen if you rant without really knowing what you're ranting about. introspec: Leaping lizards, stuck! You blew past the cynicism of the questions, not realizing they were hyperbolic. Term, ranting, lame definition of my 'rhetoric.' Term, raving, typifies anemic brain squeezings you engender. Defensive putdown, stuck... Have read your vapid castigation of other's opinions on other subjects... Frosh english 101b (marginal students) prof enamoured with word, rant? You've employed same multiple times replying my posts.... Have gloriouos day.............intro StuckInTheSixties: Okay, so your ... ahem ... measured, meaningful dialogue is supposed to be what? Commentary about the ... World Council(?) ineffectiveness? Or is it your way to say Somali pirates are bad guys? Or what? introspec: Cynicism, stuck, cynicism................ Sheeeeesh!!!!!!!!! Thought you, stucko babe, imbued with some smarts.... Still, have great wimpo day.....  authorj: Arm all people who transport merchant ships. When these lowlife's come up to one, before they can even throw a rope over the side to board it, blow them away as they sit there. It will only take a few of these instances to show these these people that people are not going to take their $h!t anymore and they might start thinking whether the next ship will be their last also. StuckInTheSixties: You're suggesting militarizing civilian shipping vessels. There's a bunch of reasons why that's unfeasable. ~ There are international laws and treaties that prohibit that. ~ The ships would need to be equipped with quite formidable weaponry to keep pirates at a distance. ~ Crews would have to be trained, a very expensive and difficult proposition. (You're essentially turning them into a naval force.) ~ Unlike military ships, cargo vessels aren't designed for warfare. (Would you want to get into an heavy weapons duel while riding on a oil or natural gas tanker?) ~ Many vessels endangered by pirates aren't large cargo vessels, but are rather small, personal recreational vessels. ~ Having all kinds of armed vessels manned by untrained civilians, operating without protocols, would lead to many accidental defensive attacks on non-pirates. (This has already happened numerous times.) Basically, giving ships the means to fight off pirates is tantamount to having your military do your shipping. It't simply too expensive. StuckInTheSixties: Of course there are. The Somali pirates ignore those laws. Are you suggesting that because they ignore those laws, International Maritime Law should simply be abandoned? By that logic, since criminals of all sorts ignore laws, all laws should be abandoned.  pugcasso: Regarding the Somali pirates..... I would be curious to know if there was any money backing them (eg... from some sources in Somalia) and whether this financial backing was secretly (ie, off the record and secret negotiation) connected to any wealthy personages or groups in our western "civilization". Knowing that western oil interests have good reason to believe the area has vast oil resources (Gulf of Aden) makes me curious about this whole topic. How come we never hear news about sea piracy off Singapore and in that area (which is one of the major shipping zones in the world) which is always a concern and has been high in recent times. I am just suspicious that there is some unstated (by the media) influence by oil interests to gain control over that region... what better way to get public opinion behind a "western-nations" invasion (of course to bring peace, liberty, justice, and democracy) than to create or allow a threat to prosper. Sometimes (often...or maybe most often), the apparent "news" is not really the full or most accurate story (in history and in the present) *******------ Quote about oil prospects in the area ------- "It's there. There's no doubt there's oil there," said Thomas E. O'Connor, the principal petroleum engineer for the World Bank, who headed an in-depth, three-year study of oil prospects in the Gulf of Aden off Somalia's northern coast. "You don't know until you study a lot further just how much is there," O'Connor said. "But it has commercial potential. It's got high potential . . . once the Somalis get their act together." O'Connor, a professional geologist, based his conclusion on the findings of some of the world's top petroleum geologists. In a 1991 World Bank-coordinated study, intended to encourage private investment in the petroleum potential of eight African nations, the geologists put Somalia and Sudan at the top of the list of prospective commercial oil producers." *******-*******- introspec: Wow, pug, a sugue from pirates extorting millions of dollars, murdering innocents to oil drilling conspiracy..........? Maybe John W Booth was framed?.... No talk of grassy knoll.... Russians took correct approach........set baxxxxxx afloat in their own sinking boat.......have also read that Russkies killed them on board of pirated vessel........ In any event, laws of sea should prevail........hang them on spot..... pugcasso: Introspec... I never said I knew something was happening but I suspect (it's merely an idea that I could never prove anyway) that there may be some influence by some powers (individuals who would wish to support this piracy to increase the idea of the western governments to interfere in Somalia). Do you really think there aren't some people whose concern for profits and control and power far outweigh their concern for lives and people. Again I ask , why no news about piracy around Singapore - I had never ever heard of that until I was in Singapore and heard about what a constant issue it was to seafaring ships. Yet I've heard about this piracy off Somalia for a couple years now, off and on. I live in North America... this land and all the Americas (half the world) was deliberately taken under the guise of the same outlook of profit at the expense of others. This is a precedent that people with power can enact huge plans at the expense of others ... so I find it silly beyond words when people in modern times disregard ideas that people with power may today be doing things at the expense of others for power. And you reply and scoff that my suspicion is just another silly "conspiracy" (it's funny how some people will twist that word now to label anyone with odd or unpopular ideas as "crazy" - it's a funny twisting of the word I've noticed on some unjournalistic TV news which use ranting and name-calling "news personalities" instead of actual journalists - I guess much of the populace would rather watch poor entertainment than actually think too much). I wonder if Julius Caesar was laughing at the word "conspiracy" when he was bleeding to death full of knife wounds. I find it odd how many people just automatically dismiss ideas like this... I find it strange and revealing how the further back in history you read, the modern mainstream history will talk about agendas and schemes for power by kings, popes, emperors but the closer to modern times we get, the history seems to project the image that people with power are all nice and honest and without secret motives for power. I'd like to know when people changed and *Power* stopped having it's hold on certain people. *******-*******-*******--- "All power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely" *******-*******-*******--- Why don't people take this phrase seriously? We should be very skeptical of the character of all people with power in politics, big business, military, mass media (which is increasingly very limited in ownership and thus in what the masses potentially get told as "real news". Why do we assume these people who climb a ladder of power are automatically honest and without further goals to gain power. Just look at the case of Michael Chertoff ... former head of Homeland Security and part author of the "rushed to be signed" Patriot Act and promoter of the use of body scanners at airports ... which is interesting since it's been discovered that a client of his security consulting firm, the Chertoff Group was the manufacturer of body scan technology!!... And yet many people assume it's a joke to say such a thing... the joke's on us all since we scoff at suggestions like mine and accept people who get into power as honest so easily! introspec: Pug, buddy, it would be great if everyone wrote succinctly and to point. Linking big oil ogres with somalian piracy is a stretch..(I think)...tho, not impossible... Men walking on moon?...No way....LOL.... pugcasso: Your reply is making assumptions about me ... you dismiss an idea and label me as having all sorts of various other ideas that I never even mentioned. This is a common reaction I have seen. I have heard of many stories about various things ... some I reject, some I feel may have some elements of truth. I don't believe everything I read or hear from mainstream or even alternative news (why would I automatically believe one researcher who ends up going off into one huge complex history ... some of which I've also seen as misguided) I never even said "Big Oil" (as one entity) ... the idea is that various so-called groups can merely have certain individuals inside them with their own plans... it doesn't mean the actual company or group (as the whole entity) has any idea of any plans of certain individuals. I just feel one has to think and not accept information you get automatically. StuckInTheSixties: pugcasso, your posts definitely have the tone of "conspiracy theory." I would guess that the reason the news isn't full of stories of piracy near Singapore is that it's not all that newsworthy in comparison to Somalia. It may be prominent in the news locally, but it seems likely to me that if the level of piracy there presented the same level of threat as it does near the Horn of Africa, it would have the same news coverage. News is news. News sells newspapers and soap on television. If it had the makings of a good news story, the media would want to cover it. You seem to be suggesting that there's some connection between possible oil reserves in the Gulf of Aden and a supposed unwarranted focus of the media on piracy in the area, with a supposed purposeful neglect of focus on piracy in the Singapore area as an indication of that. You offer no evidence for any of this, only that you're "suspicious." And you place those suspicions in the context of your concerns about the nefarious intentions of big oil ... oh ... sorry ... "western oil interests," "some powers" (whatever that means), "people with power," "agendas and schemes," "secret motives for power," "big business," "the military," "mass media," "Homeland Security," "the Patriot Act," "the use of body scanners at airports," etc. etc. etc. You ask: "Why do we assume these people who climb a ladder of power are automatically honest and without further goals to gain power?" as if not accepting your doctrine is to automatically make that assumption. Let's call this what it is: conspiracy theory.  davidk14: . Who knows. Perhaps convoys like in WW2 is the answer. Destroyers and submarines pro-actively flanking these ships instead of responding to a situation is the answer. The insurance companies can pay for the protection. The more ships in the convoy, the less cost per ship they have to pay. I'm surprised that convoys have not been tried. Or perhaps, along with the convoys, just go in and take these pirates out. Unfortuately, this operation might cause casualties of hostages. I believe at present the pirates have a little over 600 hostages and two or three dozen hijacked ships. Navy SEALS have been busy lately, but I'm sure they and other military operation groups would be up to the task....rescue the hostages...eliminate as many of the pirates as possible. . StuckInTheSixties: Common sense suggests to me that convoys aren't cost effective. It seems like an obvious strategy, so the fact that it's not being employed suggests to me that it's been considered and just found to be an impractical solution, thus no solution. Rescuing hostages is NEVER easy. Again, the obvious suggestion to me is that if it was a plausible solution, it would be employed. I think you can be sure that those hostages aren't all gathered in a big building right next to an airport like they were in Entebbe. No one in the civilized world wants to get bogged down in that quagmire of a place again except for charity groups, and they're being VERY cautious with their involvement. It's very frustrating, particularly when considering the human cost, but this just seems to be a circumstance where any option simply isn't a plausible, workable option. At this point in time, the best option seems to be to stay the heck away from that part of the Indian Ocean. davidk14: . Common sense, obvious strategies, impractical and plausible solutions....In effect, we too are being held hostage from taking action against these criminals. It is very fustrating that these thugs and murders are being 'allowed' to continue to operate because of risk management? Definately fustrating. . StuckInTheSixties: david says: "In effect, we too are being held hostage from taking action against these criminals." Well, yeah. That's true. And it is frustrating. But put it in context. There are MANY things that "hold us hostage," of you want to term it that way. There's a zillion things that hold us hostage. Most big cities have areas where it's not particularly prudent to park your car, or walk at night. Thieves hold us hostage. We lock our homes when we go out. Burglars hold us hostage. It's dangerous to attend certain team-sports contests wearing the colors of the visiting team. Hooligans hold us hostage. The list is endless. All of these things are like Somalia and the pirates. Hypothetically, they could be dealt with. In practical terms, they can't. If they could be, they would. It sucks. We live with it. (shrugs) | Philosophy Chat Room 19 People Chatting Similar Conversations |
