what is believing all about? (Page 2)

StuckInTheSixties: Ahh ...

On second look, I should have known. It's sort of quote that might come from Yogi Berra.

"A wide range of things should be considered when thinking. A wise man listens, and a logical man can tell the difference."

Tell the difference between what and what?

XFixYourBrainX: This thread is about why do we believe in something that we are uncertain about? Maybe it be anything from religion all the way to science. Do we have to believe? Where did this believing initiate itself?

XFixYourBrainX: Its not specific or as your asking "what" meaning when a wise man listens he can tell the difference in whatever it is he is listening to.

StuckInTheSixties: That's a unique usage of the word "difference."

Generally, it implies a specific comparison of more than one of something, like the difference between jazz and rock, the differences between peaches, apples and oranges, or the difference between knowing how to use the English language, and not knowing.

XFixYourBrainX: Telling the difference of what is what. Its still in the same context, because when the wise man listens he can understand first and then calculate the difference of wrong or right. Logical or illogical. Intelligent or not. Or even acknowledge discernment. Of what is being told to him.

StuckInTheSixties: Perhaps language just isn't your thing ...

Point5andahalf: To not know the answer, means to not comprehend. Or ignorance, I guess.

>>>And you know what I think of faith. I tend to assess ANY belief system based on faith the same way - I find it irrational. I like science, and beliefs based on objective, tangible evidence.<<<

So, you could say you have faith in science.

Sits, you are insisting on one particular definition, and ignoring the others.

Collins World English Dictionary
faith (feɪθ)
— n
1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence
2. a specific system of religious beliefs: the Jewish faith
3. Christianity trust in God and in his actions and promises
4. a conviction of the truth of certain doctrines of religion, esp when this is not based on reason
5. complete confidence or trust in a person, remedy, etc
6. any set of firmly held principles or beliefs
7. allegiance or loyalty, as to a person or cause (esp in the phrases keep faith , break faith )
8. bad faith insincerity or dishonesty
9. good faith honesty or sincerity, as of intention in business (esp in the phrase in good faith )

— interj
10. archaic indeed; really (also in the phrases by my faith , in faith )
[C12: from Anglo-French feid , from Latin fidēs trust, confidence]
*******-*******--------
You have no confidence?
This is the philosophy forum isn't it?
When did God become the only object of faith?
*******-*******--------
I think belief has got a lot to do with imagination. Our mind tries to make sense of the world around us, and we tend to imagine the things that are unknown to us. Which may prove to be wrong.

StuckInTheSixties: Point5 says:
"To not know the answer, means to not comprehend. Or ignorance, I guess."

There's a difference between not comprehending something, and being ignorant of something. For what it's worth, I simply don't know whether or not there is a god. I'm unashamed to claim ignorance. (There are innumberable things I'm ignorant of, as are we all.) Furthermore, I think claiming ignorance is the only rational point of view when it comes to God. As I see it, it's an unanswerable question. I can COMPREHEND the question, but I'm IGNORANT of the answer.

Point5 says:
"So, you could say you have faith in science."

You could say that. Often times religious people use that argument in an attempt to portray the agnostic or atheist as actually being religious in some form. It's dancing around with semantics, and generally speaking, I think that would be misusing the word "faith." It implies irrationality. And I don't think my point of view is irrational.

Point5 says:
"Sits, you are insisting on one particular definition, and ignoring the others - etc."

I'm not INSISTING on anything. I'm merely expressing my thoughts based on the typical usage of the word, and pointing out the differences of "faith" in that context, to "science." It's really not that difficult to understand.

Point5 says:
"You have no confidence?"

I don't understand the nature of that rather broad and ambiguous question.

Point5 says:
"This is the philosophy forum isn't it?"

Yep.

Point 5 says:
"When did God become the only object of faith?"

Obviously, it's not. I acknowledged that on page 3 of this thread when I said: "I tend to assess ANY belief system based on faith the same way - I find it irrational." You know ... stuff like astrology, ghosts, etc.

Point5andahalf: You say faith implies irrationality, and I disagree.
I'm saying faith is synonymous with confidence.
And you obviously have confidence in some things - that is to say, 'faith'.
(notice: - I'm not talking about religious faith)

Belief on the other hand,
has got a lot to do with imagination. Our mind tries to make sense of the world around us, and we tend to imagine the things that are unknown to us. Which may prove to be wrong.

Agree or no?
The topic is about belief, not religious faith, afterall.

StuckInTheSixties: Point5 says:
"You say faith implies irrationality, and I disagree. I'm saying faith is synonymous with confidence."

I'd say you're abusing one of the two, perhaps both, of those words (not to mention turning this into a debate on semantics). Their meanings are similar, not synonymous.

Point5 says:
"The topic is about belief, not religious faith, afterall."

Since you've appointed yourself as the topic cop, review the thread and see who brought up the idea of faith. (Hint: It wasn't me.)

XFixYourBrainX: Is that it sixties, nothing else?

When a person doesn't have anything intelligent to say they turn into a clown and make jokes towards people.

GreatGrammy: OK I have been thinking about this "faith" issue and have what I hope is an understandable explanation. When I use the word trust, I am usually talking about a single event or issue. When I use the word faith, I am usually talking about accepting an issue of trust for an extended and possibly indefinite time. Therefore; faith equals trust plus time.
Sixties, I believe that you are an intelligent man and therefore "trust" that you will understand this. Because of our experience in this thread, I also have great "faith" that you will dispute it.

StuckInTheSixties: I don't really see anything there to dispute. I just don't really consider things that way myself.

XFixYourBrainX: Well if dispute means to argue a point then that must mean what your saying is in a sense correct greatgrammy and that means sixties can't argue against it because he can't find anything to say otherwise.

Point5andahalf: Sits,
Which one of us is "dancing with semantics"?
How can we decide what a word means without using semantics?
You highlight one part of one definitition, from one dictionary.
You're not insisting on a meaning? ... definitely specific, then.

You are the one that doesn't know the answer here. I was just trying to explain it to you.
It's not that difficult to understand.
If you are devoid of faith, then you have no faith in yourself.
No wonder you shrug

StuckInTheSixties: Point5 says:
"Which one of us is "dancing with semantics"?"

Well, you are. You're the one fixating on the fact that the word has multiple meanings, and returning this repeatedly. I'm far less interested in debating the semantics and multiple meanings of the word than you appear to be.

Point5 says:
"How can we decide what a word means without using semantics?"

Well, we really can't. But must we beat the dead horse to a pulp?

Point5 says:
"You are the one that doesn't know the answer here."

Correct. I have no answer for the unanswerable.

Point5 says:
"I was just trying to explain it to you."

Trying to explain the unexplainable is an exercise in futility.

Point5 says:
"If you are devoid of faith, then you have no faith in yourself."

Kind of a lame platitude, don't ya think? It has nothing to do with the "faith" I am devoid of. You appear to be using that tired phrase in some attempt to insult me, make me feel inadequate, or something like that. I don't mind.

Point5 says:
"No wonder you shrug"

The shrug was explained. It has nothing to do with your perception that I have no faith in myself (whatever that's supposed to mean). It meant: "I don't know - I don't have an answer." Again, in what would appear to be some sort of attempt at an insult or something, you're changing what I explained was the reason I included that "shrug" earlier. Again, I don't mind.

Point5andahalf: Ohhhhh, lighten up man!

I thought it was funny that you came into the thread to dispute a meaning with no apparent interest in the thread.
and call me a thread cop

Come to think of it, it is not obvious that you do have any faith.
You're may be right that you have none.
I concede. I believe you.

I'm not trying to insult anyone.
Sorry for the tongue poke, it was meant in jest.
What was that word again...
besserwisser, I think
sorry for laughing.

Point5andahalf: grumblebum killjoy

XFixYourBrainX: Who cares if sixties shrugs, I don't care if he shrugs at a statement. So what.

XFixYourBrainX: Who cares if sixties is devoid of faith. So what.

Point5andahalf: ok.
I'll take my own advice and concede that my beliefs may be wrong.
I'll adjust accordingly.
Thanks

you're right, who cares
I wasn't being serious here, just trying to understand what believing is all about.

StuckInTheSixties: I hadn't noticed the tongue-poke.

XFixYourBrainX: Nobody should quarry over the old man's personal feuds of his personality.

Point5andahalf: you're cool bloke Sits. I should know better than debate meanings with you.

XFixYourBrainX: We'll if you look up the word quarry and feud its quite funny how I mention sixties in conjunction with them. About his devoid faith and his shrugging.