Evil And GOD Cant both Exist. (Page 3) StuckInTheSixties: No, it's not the same thing. Plenty of people exercise their free will and then don't accept the responsibility for the consequences. Often they can be found in a court room, pleading "Not Guilty." Now, after that attempt to sidestep the point of the topic, perhaps you can answer me this: There are plenty of people in the world that have free will, but are not evil. If God is omnipotent, and has the omnipotent powers to create any sort of world s/he wants, why didn't God create a world that has both free will, and an absence of evil?  Point5andahalf: I think as we evolve as a species over the generations, and our understanding becomes clearer. Some ppl have no guilt or remorse, but more ppl are becoming more conscious of their actions. You ask why God didn't create it all perfect in the first place, in which case there would be no room for growth. And we wouldn't have been born, because history would not have happened. StuckInTheSixties: That sounds all flowery and sort of philosophical and all, but makes no sense ... So what if there "was no growth" (whatever that means)? Why would "history not have happened"? Seems to me that there would be a history of peace, harmony, and everyone having a nice time instead of a history of greed, war, misery, and all of that stuff. Point5andahalf: What I mean is you say the world isn't good enough, God should have made it better. Meanwhile you breathe and live and exist. It's ironic that freedom is something that we cherish, but you want God to restrict you. We are alive after all. StuckInTheSixties: I said nothing of the sort. This is what I said: "Either God is omnipotent, and a sadist ... ... or God is not omnipotent, and therefore is not God." Point5andahalf: ok. You got me with the word "omnipotent". You define God, then say that kind of God can't exist. Perhaps there's a God beyond your comprehension that you can't define? To think that mere little humans can understand the eternal nature of God/the universe. I understand why you're agnostic, cos I can't prove God. No one can prove it either way. I believe in a higher power but I can't define it. It's a sense, or is it my imagination? i don't know. I give up, (but I don't concede)!! StuckInTheSixties: I'm not defining God as omnipotent. I'm merely using the conventional idea of Omnipotent God used the vast majority of religions. It's their idea, their definition, not mine. In my humble opinion, any objective view of the world around us should logically lead one to this conclusion: "Either God is omnipotent, and a sadist ... ... or God is not omnipotent, and therefore is not God." I'm not saying that we live in a world of nothing but misery. There is plenty of good in the world. But I'm saying that the misery that does exist is not consistent with the idea of an omnipotent, but non-sadist God. Perhaps God, if God exists, isn't omnipotent, but a god that is not omnipotent is not, in any conventional way of thinking, "God." While I keep an open mind (hence being an agonostic, not an atheist), it simply makes no sense to me to accept any notion of a god without any objective, tangible evidence. That requires this thing called "faith," something I neither have, nor want. Faith is the kind of thought process that leads to one being either intellectually incapable understanding the inconsistency of a benevolent, yet omnipotent god, and/or emotionally incapable of dismissing that inconsistent idea. flashie: we study to get good grades. why arent we born with a phd? why arent cars just there, without having to build them? why do trees grow and dont just be 100ft tall? why do we need to work on our relationships with others, instead of just automatically loving in bliss or killing in hate? get my drift? its natural to work to get a result. this isnt heaven. its an exam and life shows that. you get out what you put in eventually. evil exists to test our deeds. it seems reasonably logical to me KrAsH: God and free will cant exist together.. An all knowing god would already know the outcome of everybody's actions,if he didnt,he wouldn't be all knowing (omni-potent) And if something already knows what we haven't done yet,it cant possibly be free will if the outcome has already been decided.  by123: Thanks guys for your thoughts i've been reading them as they come up. Im going to start another post on vegertarianism. Its based around the animal in Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy where they bread an animal that wants to be eaten. Please spost your thoughts flashie: yes krash, this gem is a headfuck for want of a better word. More on Taqdeer – Fate Question: Allah's Apostle, the true and truly inspired said, "(The matter of the Creation of) a human being is put together in the womb of the mother in forty days, and then he becomes a clot of thick blood for a similar period, and then a piece of flesh for a similar period. Then Allah sends an angel who is ordered to write four things. He is ordered to write down his (i.e. the new creature's) deeds, his livelihood, his (date of) death, and whether he will be blessed or wretched (in religion). Then the soul is breathed into him. So, a man amongst you may do (good deeds till there is only a cubit between him and Paradise and then what has been written for him decides his behavior and he starts doing (evil) deeds characteristic of the people of the (Hell) Fire. And similarly a man amongst you may do deeds till there is only a cubit between him and the (Hell) Fire, and then what has been written for him decides his behavior, and he starts doing deeds characteristic of the people of Paradise." Can you elaborate this hadith in the context of free will in Islam? Because from the apparent text reading it is clear that everything about a human being is already written and preserve, so the concept of judgment day is seemingly contradicted to what has been already decided? flashie: Answer: It is not prudent to comment on a given hadith without collecting and analyzing all of its various narrations and then deliberating upon it in the light of the Qur'an. However, strictly from the perspective of fate and taqdeer, the narrative seems quite clear. Before taking a look at the cited hadith, it is important to remember that "taqdeer" in the referred context implies God's absolute knowledge about everything, including each man's ultimate destiny in the hereafter. The narrative tells us that even before the birth of a person, God has full knowledge regarding the deeds he/she would perform during the life of this world, regarding his means of livelihood, regarding the time of his death and regarding his ultimate destiny in the hereafter. The narrative then explains how God's knowledge is absolute and without any flaw. As an example, it tells us that a person about whom God knows that his ultimate destiny will be in hellfire, he will inevitably reach the hellfire. Even if such a person had apparently seemed to have lived most of his life in piety and goodness, he would ultimately commit deeds - with his own freewill - that will disqualify him from entry into paradise. A further important lesson in this hadith ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) is that no person, however pious and god-fearing he has been, should be complacent about his deeds. He must remember that his test during the life of this world continues till his death and till that time the chance of qualifying for eternal bliss as well as that of eternal punishment continues to exist. Any complacency and carelessness on his part, may completely nullify his deeds piety and goodness and lead him to the eternal punishment of hellfire. Regards, Moiz Amjad October 23, 2004 thought it was relevant so included it KrAsH: And the obvious danger of the above is you teach that to the wrong person,someone who decides im going to hell anyway so i might as well grab my ak 47 and go down to the local supermarket and kill as many people as i can.Why delay the inevitable? Whats the harm? Those i kill are going to hell or heaven anyways,its already been decided. Careful who you condemn to hell,he may put you there 1st.. flashie: chill bill, im not the judge and anyone who tells you they are is severely mistaken. your response, minus the flapping about ppl judging you is logical and what I should have expected from you sir. its funny how our arguments and questioning hasnt changed a bit since 1500 years ago, and of course there is a hadeeth (i cant copy and paste it now as im pon the sony xperia in a waiting room and havent got used to my smart phone yet).. anyway, as this hadeeth explains, ppl did ask a similar question to yours minus the flapping and non existent ak47s then.. I think it went sumin like this, that the prophet said that god helps his servants to fulful their destiny, ill post the authentic hadeeth when I get to my laptop incase im made error. but basically far as I remember we should all strive to be good ppl, obviously. flashie: I hope youre not really considering a kill spree krash, be positive bro, only god knows the future so its not ness inevitable, and I hope getting hold of ak's isnt. that easy in aus. youre not on prozac are you? you always struck me as a balanced bloke. dont do it, think of the children bro KrAsH: Nah im chill.. But not everyone is mentally well adjusted.. Do religions ( all of them) take that in to account when teaching such things as hell? Or is that someone elses problem when they flip out? 1 in 3 people will suffer mental illness at some point in their lives. Food for thought.. flashie: youre not making much sense bro, maybe its my bad can you clarify? you say one in three suffer mental illness but also suggest anyone subscribing to hell notion is mentally ill? im not a mathematician, but if you add up all the people who and whove subscribed to the notion that we could be punished in an afterlife its far more than one in three and im pretty sure being a christian jew muslim yahwist etc etc isnt clinically regarded as mentally ill. you ok bro? you got some issues right? flashie: so krash do you know of any kill sprees or indeed murders motivated by 'im going to hell anyway'? i wonder if any mentally ill atheists have murdered raped stolen whatever thinking well when i die thats it so it dont matter coz im not gonna get punished? i hope hell exists and adolph hitlers there crying into his swastika ay KrAsH: ^^^ Hitler was raised a catholic,as long as he repented his sins and made peace with god he goes to heaven <<< Who'd figure Ever heard of someone walking into a restaurant and blowing people up?..or some pro lifer killing some doctors and nurses all because their religion told them to in their own minds.. I guess thats the beauty of having a religion,its doesnt have to take responsibility for anyone,maybe i should get 1 KrAsH: Look up a guy by the name of scott roeder,and see what drove him to do what he did.. (id post links,but the thought police will nab me) His religion didnt take any responibility for his crimes.. damionmcclellen2001: god is real ecanple to al athist yal balieve nothing can come from nothing so u dont believe in god right were did the particals that caused the big bang come from if nothing can come from nothing then they must have always ben there thats kinda like god therer forever so if god didnt exist we4 couldnt exist there for there is a god 
LiptonCambell: If you don't believe in something can come from nothing....then where did God come from? | Philosophy Chat Room 7 People Chatting Similar Conversations |