Evil And GOD Cant both Exist. (Page 2) Aura: There is no proof of god, and that is the whole point of faith, isn't it? If there were proof you don't have to believe, it would just be a fact like so many facts out there, hardly worth a second thought. The argument that the religious have to come up with proof of god before they will be right is just a stalling tactic. Either you believe or you don't. If you feel you need proof you will never have faith. The faithfull have no need for proof. I'd even go as far as saying that those who feel they have to convince the others of their faith don't have it to start with. If you really believe nothing anyone could say would sway you anyway, so what does it matter what others believe or do not believe.  StuckInTheSixties: I originally asked you: "Do you have any objective, tangible proof [that we are 'being tested to see if [we] qualify for a better life next time]? Actually, I asked you that twice. The closest you came to a straight answer was "my only proof is nature of life" (Not the most elegant usage of the English language, but we understand your point.) I assume that by saying "nature of life," you are referring to the existence of the natural universe. It's a huge, irrational conceptual leap to consider the existence of the natural world as being evidence that we're being subjected to some cosmic, celestial test of our characters.  flashie: its not so wacky. you care what your mum or dad think about you right? whats wrong with ppl fearing god? youd need a global tyranny once ppl have no shame. i dont want saddam/polpot/stalin/hitler/bush/obama etc get me? ruling the planet taxing us more, id rather belive in this god who you claim dont exist. infact id prefer it if evil was an exclusively supernatural force then we dont need to bomb ppl to give them our 'freedom' which means death StuckInTheSixties: Once again (try to focus on the question instead of ranting about something else): Do you have any objective, tangible proof of your claim that we are "being tested to see if [we] qualify for a better life next time"?  steven8: by123 VIP Member Lvl. 5 Ok guys so heres what im thinking. God by definition (supposedly) is everpresent, omnicient and omnipotent and Morally Perfect. If god was omnipotent he has the power to get rid of all evil in the owrld. If he is omnicient he knows eveil exists. If he is Morally perfect he would see no justice in animals having painfull deaths and children dieing in wrechous pain. If god was morally perfect he would get rid of evil. Evil Exists. Either god isnt omnicient or he is not Omnipotent or he isnt morally perfect. Therefore he mustnt exist. Your thoughts Please? we as humans asume to much. personaly i would ask you this question. are you omnicient, omnipotent and morally perfect because you say that if God is then he should and would do this and this. but ask yourself, are you those things no. Then how do you know that God would do those things. Evil cannot exists If the world were cauose. but the only way i see evil even being able to exists is from some kind of being outside our universe. look at it like this for one example. you say, God wouldnt allow death ir he were morrally perfect he wouldnt let animals die. Well you asume to much, first you have to ask yourself, how do i view animals, and how does God view animals. If your view are diffrent then it changes it all. I believe the bible and it says, God created the animals for our use. therefore, he cares for us more than animals. one thing we know now, but what i beilive is that God doesnt put animal at his highest level of enjoyment. secound the bible says they are for us, to eat and all to enjoy. so God enjoys us most, gave animals for our enjoyment, and made them for the purpose as our food, and enjoyment. If God didnt let animals die we would not have food, therefore im thankfull. you are taking that death is evil. like death is apart of evil and its not. evil is that wich is not Good. so by whos standerd is Good. But thats a whole neither topic. but i will say this, death has nothing to do with evil. IF the bible is write then God offers a way to eternal awesomeness with him. therefore its not evil. so, the people that go to hell, its there fault, for being arogant and pridefull and not following God, but its not Gods fault for them going to hell he gave a chance. Yes God could have not even made hell, or let any of it exists, so is it his fault. I would say no, but anyone could argue it. it all started with satan haveing free will. If i made a robot and i decided because i wanted it to actually have a life it could choose on its own, i gave it free will, that doesnt make me bad. even if i knew the robots future, its not my fault for what the robot does, its the robots fault for not obaying my orders when i first told him. the ultimate dicision is the robots. i could have stoped it all but doesnt make it my fault. If i went into a grocry store and i invisioned a man comming in robbing the store, and i decided that when the time came that the man would rob the place, i left instead of making myself the hero and stoping him, is it my fault. no, yes i could have stoped him because i knew it was going to happen but it was his decision to rob the place, even if i didnt know he was going to do it, he was. and he made the choice so its not my fault. same with God steven8: yes, im a very bad speller, but after reading all that, thats all you can repy to it. hmmmm steven8: There is no proof of god, and that is the whole point of faith, isn't it? If there were proof you don't have to believe, it would just be a fact like so many facts out there, hardly worth a second thought. The argument that the religious have to come up with proof of god before they will be right is just a stalling tactic. Either you believe or you don't. If you feel you need proof you will never have faith. The faithfull have no need for proof. I'd even go as far as saying that those who feel they have to convince the others of their faith don't have it to start with. If you really believe nothing anyone could say would sway you anyway, so what does it matter what others believe or do not believe. A lot of people disagree with me, but i belive everything takes faith. You said God doesnt exists well that takes faith. science takes faith. but, thats what philosophy does, we use our logic, and priciples to come to logical conclusions. ill give you an example. While a man falling from an air plan a 1000 feet with no parachoot has the possibility of survival, the actuallity is that the man falling from an air plan a 1000 feet in the air with no parachoot will die. therefore i reason the man will not servive. yes my answer takes faith, but so does the other answer, the one i picked is more logical and while the possibility is there of servival the actuality is that the possibility wont happen in the actuall. you are simply putting your own opinion in there. i learn theology not only to experience God in a new way but to help others see God is real, so i do have a purpose for lerning it, and just because i study it doesnt mean that i dont have faith in God, thats so rediculous to say. very bad philosopy. i have faith ill get my drivers licences so should i just not study for it. and if i do study for it, does that mean i have no faith that i will achieve my Goal. no you dont know its only your opinion. someone could be studying it, to achieve it to the fullest, not because they dont have faith, or just to remember it, or to help someone else with it. there are a number of posibilities. you cant just asume you know others thoughts. steven8: I'd even go as far as saying that those who feel they have to convince the others of their faith don't have it to start with. If you really believe nothing anyone could say would sway you anyway, so what does it matter what others believe or do not believe. the only reason i try to tell others and convince them of my faith is because, its logical that all the answers go to god, and he has changed my life, its not bad that i want others to experience the joy of knowing God. If it doesnt matter on peoples belifes then why are you on here stateing your opinion, obviously it matters to you. steven8: StuckInTheSixties Super Elite Member Lvl. 8 This tired old sermon has many holes in it. But it has one very good defense for those who would criticize it: It's fxz$z#$ LONG, the work would be tedious, and likely, no one would bother reading it. If you're impressed with the "logic" that the sermon purportedly utilizes, here's a challenge: Write a different story, shorter, that utilizes the same supposed points of logic in support of the same ideas that this long, tired, cobwebby diatribe has. (And try not to abuse the scientific principals behind the concepts of "heat" and "cold" as this thing did.) Here's my take on the idea put forth by the initial post in this thread: If God is omnipotent, than s/he must also either not give a rat's ass about us, or be an outright sadist. Of course, the theists will cry out about "free will." But if God is omnipotent, why didn't s/he create a world in which free will can exist without evil? Why didn't God create the perfect world? The only rational answer is that God either doesn't give a rat's ass about us, or s/he's an outright sadist. Or doesn't exist. steven8: haha i love what you said in the biggining. IF God created free will, why didnt he do it without evil. well here is your answer. it wouldnt be free will. IF there were no evil, then what else would there be besides Good. and if God is all that is good, then all you could have is GOd, there for you couldnt choose not to be with him because that would be evil. Once again, yea, if the answer is to hard to find, on how does evil work with a perfect GOd, then go back to the beginning, IF evil cannot exists without God, then obviously God would be real, and that would mean we are jsut not smart enought to know how he works with evil. IF God were not real, and all were caous how would evil exists. there would not be such thing as wrong from write, because everthing would be by chance. so nothing would be bad. it would just be what it is. evil couldnt exists, even if you say will it was tought, well how did the first person learn it if no one ealse knew it. we would all be in servival mode. it wouldnt be evil to kill people. If we were hungry and ate a human being we wouldnt feel bad for it. and know one would think it was evil. so were does it come from if it cant come from nature. well there has to be a God, wether you call it an alien or ufo it will carrie out the same definition as God And just because God is omnipotent doesnt me he cant create evil. if God is omnipotent all power all athoritie then he can do almost what ever he wants Point5andahalf: **Evil And GOD Cant both Exist** This is probably true from a dualistic point of view. Evil (and good) is merely a human word, a construct, a divisive judgemental attitude that exists in the human mind but not in the rest of the animal kingdom or in reality. But if God is absolute, then there is no opposite. What we experience as egotistical individuals may be Gods means to an end. We, (as in all creation, not just as individuals), need to go through this process of evolution and self analysis to achieve a result for those who will come after us. We, as a species are not the pinnacle of existence. We are a means to an end. And according to most religions the end is peace. Something comes after us. I like to think humanity will evolve into a more peaceful animal, in time. And a more intelligent one. Apart from science AND religion, and in spite of them. Whatever is malicious will cease, and whatever is beneficial will remain. (in future generations). jim-jim!: anyone been to a dog show? perhaps a p*%#w fest or a pumpkin off? these are all examples off selective breeding. natural selection, the driving force behind Darwin's theory of evolution, is simply nature doing the selection instead of man.... easily observable in all walks of life... massive hole in that petulant child's argument. i kinda like the story tho cos i like smart asses! Point5andahalf: Petulant MAN's arguement We are still evolving. I agree it's natural selection, God is not seperate to nature, we are evolving into a more aware creature. Well, I am at least!! steven8: natural selection is so crazy to believe. think of this a dinosore turning into a bird over time. once that dinasore starts growing a bird leg how will it get away from ist pray, it wont be able to run that fast. or a wolf turning into a wale. can you picture a wolf with no back legs but a fin not in water yet, but some how out of water. how could it get away form its pray it obviously cant run that fast. you dont know if any of those animals survived. thats just one big gap in natural selection StuckInTheSixties: Dude, you're a RIOT!  Natural selection doesn't happen ANYTHING like your description. jim-jim!: Just to help you with your awareness, Mr. 5, may I point out that actually it was a child trying to say there's no way to observe evolution happening.... & Mr. 8... me oh my, that is a very strange understanding of natural selection indeed! Anyhoo have a good one eh.. †Jack☠OfHearts†™: the one by123 asked: "If god was omnipotent he has the power to get rid of all evil in the owrld. If he is Morally perfect he would see no justice in animals having painfull deaths and children dieing in wrechous pain. If god was morally perfect he would get rid of evil. Evil Exists. Either god isnt omnicient or he is not Omnipotent or he isnt morally perfect. Therefore he mustnt exist. Your thoughts Please? " -If there's an moral,holy god then the only reason/ excuse I can think he can have for allowing suffering/evil is free will..that a man is accountable for his actions. Point5andahalf: I agree with that. Unlike other animals, we are accountable for our actions. And if we don't accept responsibility, then our environment and descendants suffers the consequences. StuckInTheSixties: Some months back I posted a thread in the Religion Forum essentially putting forth the same idea: (assuming God exists) Either God is omnipotent, and a sadist ... ... or God is not omnipotent, and therefore is not God. The ways that various believers who replied contorted logic like a pretzel was pretty interesting. The expression "free will" was referred to ad nauseum. Point5andahalf: Free will and accepting responsibility. Same thing? And the ability to predict consequences of actions is a major difference between humans and the rest of life, I imagine. What's the dif between having free will and being accountable? | Philosophy Chat Room 6 People Chatting Similar Conversations |