Certainty And Uncertainty

StuckInTheSixties: This might be a question of semantics, rather than philosophy, but I'll ask it anyway:

Can one simultaneously be certain of something, and also uncertain of it, or are those two states of mind mutually exclusive?

Wampum6: I'll go out on a limb, and say it's difficult to be both at the same time, but at different times it's a different story. Of course I could be wrong(lol).

StuckInTheSixties: I think so too. I think you're either certain of something, or you're not.

Wampum6: LOL----but someone on here is likely to come up with a whole new rationale----but we will know better!

badgirl___72: i believe you can be certain of something yet uncertain at the same time and exclude doubt in that thought frame

ie im certain i like my nips but uncertain they look good to others.

or maybe i am just blonde

StuckInTheSixties: Okay, I'll be more specific for you, Nips.

Certain and uncertain OF THE SAME THING.

Liking your nips is one thing.

How they look to other people is something different.

KrAsH: Gambling

You can be certain about the uncertainty of the outcome?

StuckInTheSixties: Gambling lives within the branch of mathematics called "Statistics and Probabilities." This is one of my favorite subjects, because the math is so elegant, and the ramifications of it are so dependable and certain. There is an uncertainty, a risk, that is a part of gambling, but it all depends upon the scale in which you examine it. But essentially, just like with Nips' comment, the certainty and uncertainty are two different things. For instance, if you flip a coin, you are uncertain if it will come up heads or tails. However, if you flip it a million times, you can be certain that it will be heads, within a very tiny margin of error, 50% of the time.

Philosophically, I'm asking, can you simultaneously be certain your next flip will be heads, and uncertain of the that as well?

(The coin flipping analogy is terrible, I know.)

I also really love playing poker, which uses this science in all kinds of different interesting ways.

So let's try to not let this thread deviate off into gambling, poker, statistics and probabilities, etc.

KrAsH: Hmmm ok

Someone certainly believes god exist,but has a crisis of faith (though doesnt lose it) when uncertainty creeps in.

Caught in 2 minds?

AFoolLostinParadise: ok, try this one

many many moons ago, i experienced an amazing year of putting (as in golf). I'll skip the details, but know that i had the ability to be in the zone. The most amazing putt i made still sticks in my mind with mind-boggling clarity, not because i made it, but because i knew with certainty that it was in, the moment i hit it. I cannot stress that enuff, despite being, unimaginably, 21 steps or approx 63'. It was an experience of shibumi. As i watched it roll, that certainty never wavered, even when it crossed mind that, hmmmm, there are spike marks out there which could derail the putt. So, yes, i was certain of one result barring no interference and yet, uncertain about that result if interference occurred.

StuckInTheSixties: First, I'll respond to Krash:
The believer indeed has a crisis of faith when doubt creeps in. At the moment of doubt, their faith fails them. They no longer have faith, for faith is unwavering. However, if the crisis passes, and they regain their faith, there is no longer any doubt. So I would say that the certainty, uncertainty, and then certainty again they felt about God was not simultaneous, but rather was a series of separate states of mind the person went through over a period of time.

And AFLIP:
Once again, as in two examples above, there are two distinctly different (though closely related) possible circumstances involved: one in which the putt rolls across the green with no interference from spike marks, and another where spike marks cause interference.

By the way, your description of the putt was really cool.

Let me provide a couple of examples of the kind of thing I'm driving at with my question:

Could a person simultaneously be certain their spouse is faithful to them, yet also be uncertain about that?

Could a person hear the strains of a symphony, and be certain it was the first movement of Beethoven's 3rd Symphony, and yet, simultaneously be uncertain of that?

Could a person be certain that they turned the oven off before leaving the house, and yet, simultaneously be uncertain about it?

Note that in each of these three examples, we're talking about a single thing (fidelity of the spouse/a specific piece of music/the state of the oven).

Note the very important word I've repeatedly used: "simultaneously", which implies things happening at the same time, rather than consecutively.

Teece: Simple answer I think is yes.
I think that we are certain about things until the subject is brought up or we think harder on it - then that
little nag of uncertainty appears............. we still act certain, but we are questioning ourselves.
I think it is healthy - keeps us on our toes.... Keeps us thinking and questioning.
We all abhor know it alls after all...........

StuckInTheSixties: Come on, class! Pay attention!

Jeez, this is a little frustrating.

Again, I'll add emphasis:

"I think that we are certain about things UNTIL the subject is brought up or we think harder on it - THEN that little nag of uncertainty appears ..."

There are two words in there, "until" and "then" that show you were not considering the certainty and uncertainty as SIMULTANEOUS events. Both of those words are "time" qualifiers, specifying CONSECUTIVE, rather than SIMULTANEOUS events.

KrAsH: Looking into someone with split personalities <<< Or is that cheating?

StuckInTheSixties: (laughs)

It's probably cheating, but elaborate, if you please.

KrAsH: Ok..

You have a person with 1 mind,but lets say 2 personalities (Dissociative identity disorder)

1 of the personalities believes with certainty only he/she exist in his/her own mind,where as the other personality is uncertain that he/she exist alone in his/her own mind.

1 mind,certainty and uncertainty on the same subject?

Teece: So, let me get this right.
You are wondering if it is possible to be uncertain of something and certain of it all at the same time?
Like all in the same moment?
Nope. Unless you have multiple personalities.
Uncertainty, in my opinion, can only enter the equation when it is thought about or analysed.....
which would be after that fact and so not thought simultaneously with the certainty....

StuckInTheSixties: Krash first.

Okay. Multiple personalities. One personality has certainty about an issue, while the other is uncertain about the same thing. I think I've got the scenario, tortured as it is.

Unless I misunderstand, and I admittedly know little about split personality disorders, I would think that a person with that condition shifts back and forth between one and the other, hence, it's not simultaneous. I think it's also arguable that in essence, while it's one body and brain, you are, for all intents and purposes, dealing with two separate "people." So of course, with two people, one can be certain of something, while the other isn't.

Teece:
You're understanding my question now, tricky as it is. Simultaneously. Or as you aptly described it, "in the same moment."

It really seems pretty simple to me. One can't be certain of something, and simultaneously be uncertain of it. It simply can't be done. The closest you can come to that is to shift back and forth between certainty and uncertainty, something that any normal person has done many times. But simultaneously ... nope.

Teece: Sorry, it took a while to work out.......... Very tricky indeed!!

StuckInTheSixties: It really seems like a no-brainer to me, yet there really seems to be a lot of people that are determined to refute it. Not just in this thread, but in general.

Teece: Lol........ some will refute anything for a good debate!!

CandyRivers: Oh this is a very quantum discussion.

Quantum superposition simultaneous existence of states, yes, i think they obviously do exist.

But, the brains capacity for cognition, can it recognise those thoughts simultaneously, that is the real question.

We maybe need to ask someone with a corpus callosotomy what they think (on both sides lol)

Wampum6: But, dealing with someone who has had a callosotomy, could you interrogate the split hemispheres simultaneously? And get answers for the same point in time for both hemispheres at the same time? That question is coming from a complete layman on this subject-----me.

StuckInTheSixties: Um ...

KrAsH: Chaos theory applies to psychology doesnt it?

Is it beyond the realms of possibility a mind can become so chaotic its thinking of 2 things at once?

Teece: Lol..... It is not unusual for me to be thinking about 5 different things at once......... its called
multi-tasking!!