The future and its dilemmas - Part II (Page 3)

jim-jim!: once again ThOr dons the crown of elegance! 3 oi's for ThOr!!!

language is key when communicating... so can a human keep up with advanced machine coding? could a machine be more concious than a human given that eventually many more calculations could be performed in the same time frame?

Lanjamin: You can't have feelings because to do that you would have to have a brain and since humans don't understand most of the brain themselves how is it possible for us to recreate one for you. It is possible that you can have programmed in feelings but these would be standard across the range and there would be no variation. A human may respond to the same situation in different ways a robot would not.

Lanjamin: Also language is not the key to communicating. Communication comes more from your actions that the actually words robots are unable to determine facial movements and tones such as sarcasm.

Kalla: Truth be told, I was thinking on this very subject this morning, and arrived at the same conclusion - I couldn't answer the quetion since there's no real way in explaining something we don't ourselves understand.

Still, I don't and never will accept that any form of robotic consciousness can ever be truely 'alive' as we are. To me, they are nothing but tools and I'll not be convinced otherwise.
The same could relly be said about humanity, if any two Deities discussed us at such philosophical lengths.

Geoff: But leif, how do you define life?

There is debate among professional philosophers as to whether computer viri constitute primitive life. And for a modern computer to be accepted into the classical definition of life all it would to do would be to make reasonable facsimiles of itself (a tricky task, which is exactly WHY Van Nuemann proposed it in the first place).

Outbackjack: So how do you define life everyone?

ceos: i think your argument is very good but we have in it a logic mistake, we asume that the machine can ask a question like that making him equal to the human this is known in logic as the falacy of

veronica: wow this thread is still alive 6 months later

Geoff: Ceos, the purpose of this thread is if a machine can built which can actually think. We aren't debating if a machine is the equal of a human.

Although morally does a thinking machine become a moral entity, worthy of rights?

benji_franklin: I agree with Kurzweil, the question of whether a robot is conscious or not can't be addressed by science. The best we can do is to make do with the Turing test -- deciding by conversation whether something is conscious.

I'm not sure that the robot in that first conversation would pass the Turing test though. Logic and rational conversation is something can be programmed fairly easily -- just look at ELIZA which was developed way back in the 1960s. Heuristics, emotion, and irrationalities are the most complex and unique aspects of human behavior that may be essential to passing the Turing test but may not be essential to consciousness. So even our best test is in no way reliable.

Who knows, most of you out there may be zombies without any conscious experience. Or we may be just an element of some larger sentient creature now that we're all so interconnected via the internet. AH, the singularity is coming!!

Ary, the wind seer: My body may be but a vessel, it is only a machine. But what I do have is a soul.
And when my time comes, it shall move on. But as being mire a machine build without a soul, it shall mirly stop to exist.

Point5andahalf: Hi. I,m new to wc and found this interesting thread.
I think a machine could be considered conscious just like an an animal or a plant is in the sense they are aware of their environment and react to it. But I can't imagine an inorganic invention to have emotions, feelings of love and heartache, or a need to procreate. Have you heard of the idea that the heart has a network of nerves that has a form of awareness like the brain? Our whole nervous and hormonal system forms our awareness and conscience. That's why we can think with our brain, and feel with our heart or have "a gut feeling".
The only instinct a machine can have is what humans give it. And I think we should give animals, plants and people equal rights before we give robots a right to exist.
It's scary to imagine machines could become more selfish and violent than humans. I hope the makers program them with empathy!

Comrade_: Following from the original posting..

Robot: "Why don't you try to prove *you* are conscious instead?"

You: How do you convince a madman who believes himself to be sane, while he tries to convince you that he is sane and you a madman...you're both alone on an island there is nothing to compare sanity to..and you begin to question yourself "Am I sane"?

"PROOF!" a word both hated and loved haaha

I understand the plight of the robot..he can have all the programmes in-place but lack something that one thing that humans have (what is it? I can't explain... but I will try)
example a robot like a human will see someone it is familiar with die, similar to the human brain it too can replica something similar to the feeling of "sadness" and vocally express its "feelings". The next day it sees the picture of the person and its programme hints it to alter itself maybe trigger a part to let out a 'tear'. It remains that to tell the robot that he has no consciousness is madness as he portraits everything that a human will do.
...but he is a replica of a human...you "know" he has no consciousness...somehow you know it...
is the continued feeling of remorse and awareness that something has actually changed within life understood by the robot? (Understood within itself, not 'felt' )
then those processes that happens in the mind of the human makes them question what happened to that person that died? (a robot can be programmed to also have a question frensy)
but will it reason within its mind the lost? will it after 2 years still thinking over it or let that one incident change how it view life?
that after being fit with all possible programmes and ways of responding will it question things, question in an effect to understand? will it create a fantasy of life after death to cope with it?
without a programme would it generate that 'hope' on its own accord?



You: I'm conscious, I dont understand the extent of consciousness nor how it is outwardly 'proven' I know you are not, but to each their own.

(the robot never questioned himself to ask if it is really conscious or not, never took the time to say 'hmmm is this guy right am I really conscious?' )

Tatilove: Dang... this question makes me think of Robocop 2 haha

Aryaa: Roger Penrose's 'The Emperor's Mind' and 'The Shadows of Mind' are good read on the subject of AI and robotics.

By common sense, first thing I may argue is this....

Robot: "Why don't you try to prove *you* are conscious instead?"
Me: I, as conscious human, am UNIQUE in mind, body and personality. There is no one else on this world that is exact replica of me. So, my behaviour in thinking and action is undeterministic to a great extent, whereas yours is predictable by your programmer. [I have a Moral sense to adhere to common interest of my own kind...that you don't have].

Yan26: Well what if you dont try to prove it. What if instead I throw a tantrum followed by a display of egotism and vanity and some imagination. (which can be done only if you are aware of yourself) This would be done in an illogical pattern. ( by displaying the ability to behave both logically and emotionally/illogically it would be proof I am not a program. I only have to behave in a pattern unrecognizable by the robot. Since the robot cannot prove that I am not conscious I would therefore by logic be conscious. The key is in confusing the robot.I believe there is a theory in AI That it is not possible for an intelligence to understand another system more complicated than itself. So the robot would not be as smart as us as we cant create something smarter than ourselves.)

mindlessly: eeee part of my uneducated problem with the educated is the way they talk ... way to complicated trains of thought to have just said one step lead to another . then another .then it becomes apparent that some of ya have common sense traits and well other were don't ... being programed built with common sense and logical attributes makes our machines conscious of they are ... i think .. cause my does a awful lot of what i ask it too ...and has the audacity too tell me what i need to do for it's welfare ...

Zen777: Are plants living ? They are a life form are they not ? Do they have a conscious ? Something else definds life not just weather you can think or have a conscious. There are many forms of life that may or may not think. Consciousness of being is not a good indictor of life as we know it. That is way too far out of our league to judge. We have only just begun to understand life. There are too many questions left unanwsered. For now we have to just wait till we can define life.

hairytoes: a machine could prove its conscious if it could prove to you that it loved you.

mindlessly: slap yourself hairy toes for that silly comment... my computer proves it conscious every single day by suggesting too me sites and what all i'd never other wise be aware of ... and it tells me i go to my same old same old sites . has even said to me do i really want to go there .oh yes it has ...and has given me it's reasons for having advised me .....

hairytoes: so tell me mindlessly, how did your computer prove to you that it loved you.

mindlessly: silly silly silly of you .. el hairy toes .....and what loves me is another man made machine of organic flesh ....

hairytoes: you still havent answered the question mindlessly.

mindlessly: Toes ... my fellow great ape .... feeling doesn't have to mean sensations ... or what we term as emotions ... is no greater pain for a great ape like us than those pains and agony our emotions can cause us to feel physically yet no harm to our physical body was done onto it. my computer thinks . it gathers for me and has read my usual go too and brings up to me similar places for me to explore answers all of my questions... it has fore warned me where not to venture ... if that's not love of different kind what would be...if it's not a form of individuality what is it then ...i'm into silly pc causal games ...my computer down loads them installs them and runs them for me ...is that not a form controlled procreation with in the realm of a complex machine bearing a simple yet complex game .i don't feel my instinct physically i sense when it has something for me to gist too heed .... yet instinct is always sometimes confused with feelings ...or is forgotten it even exists with in us all ......my instinct has moved me physically out of harms way while my mind was preoccupied at something else much to my surprise no less ... has yours done you that favor a time or two .....

hairytoes: that is not love.