The is NO free will. we are prods of out envio. (Page 13)

FogofWar: "Even if we see them and think our life is better for them we cannot make it that way. If we cant even do it for our own country we CANNOT do it for another."

So they have free health care in Afghanistan? This is a piss poor example Matty....you're comparing a nation that has an average wage in a year to a nation that makes more in a day. The average farmer in Afghanistan makes less in one year than you do in a day. It's not about us showing them "our" way....it's us helping them to build it their own way. We are there to bear the brunt of fighting while they build their own government and forces. We are there helping them construct buildings according to their codes and methods.

It absolutely amazes me as to how hypocritical you are on this topic. You constantly say NO human can understand what they haven't seen...then tell me you know MORE about what you have NEVER seen than I; who have seen it.

Coming close to signing up is nothing like actually doing it. Coming close means you had a thought; contemplated it. If we threw everyone in jail for contemplating murder or beating the shit out of someone; we'd have no one left on the streets; and assault charges handed out by the second.

Euantron: Okay this is a huge thread and there's no way im reading it all - so everything im about to say may have already been said... even so! I have 2 big issues with your opening argument; the 1st is a small one but the 2nd is a big big big one. 1stly you seem to personify the environment like a dictator which is capable of making decisions... probably just a turn of phrase you didnt mean to you but I do hope you get how undefensible that is. The environment is itself a broad term hard to pin down but any way you cut it - it simple is and thats that - the decisions come later in the heads of the subjects involved. That is to say there is a decision making process - even if the options are limited and the outcome of that process might logically go way depending on the environment - there is still a process and ultimately here thats whats important.
The second issue and this is a really big one for me - and this goes for your argument and all the other more elegant determinist - is that you seem to want to say freedom of choice would come if our reasons couldnt be explained(!!!!!!) You seem to want to say that because all decisions can be explained by the chain of events before it that the decison is a fixed and unchangable response to this chain and this goes on all the time in both directions along this chain. Now basicly this chain is the process of explaining all the mini details of whats going on, the subjects mind, how that mind came to be the way it is, the environment that caused that and the environment the mind is currently dealing with... Because this can be explained people seem to say that means that we aren't free... as if freedom would be if for one reason or another decisions couldn't be explained - they just randomly happen one way or another. If why i did things was inexplicable then i have a big problem with my freedom since somewhere along the line i am simply doing things ARBITRARILY. I hope this points out that simply explaining how and why we make decisions does not change the fact that decisions are being made. Now if you could come back to me from the future and say 'you're going to do such and such and this time - just try and stop it'. And I couldnt stop myself from doing as you said and the time you said then indeed im seriously and clearly unfree. But you cant say that - everything you say has to be in hindsight after id already done whatever it is.
At the MOST ill grant your argument and ones like it that perhaps freedom -whatever that is - is dictated by the environement and history and that we are not free to be some chaotic creature which acts without dicernible reason. Even so we are always AUTONOMOUS, that is to say - we always own and make the decisions invovled. They are our decisions no matter how much detail you can go into about why we made them. Phew! I really got all academic on this - I just cant stand determinists who think they have is sussed.

FogofWar: His theory that our environment dictates who we are has a heavy flaw.....one I noticed during my basic training with the Canadian Forces.

If in fact, we were products of our environment; and had no ability to make a decision that was not predetermined by what our environment taught us; then I would not have seen such diversity within the fellow recruits that I trained with. I met people that I had never met in my life; who came from totally different environments; thousands of miles away; in totally different customs....yet many of our beliefs were the same. How can this be? If my environment is what taught me to be this way; then how can someone come from an environment that is totally opposite and believe the exact same thing? I am from a small town in Saskatchewan; and yes, that small town attitude has affected me; because I let it! I learned to be polite and respectful from my parents; and I CHOSE to listen.
One of the guys I trained with came from a large area in downtown Missisauga, gang life, violence and the occasional drive by shooting are regular occurrences to him. He comes from a place in which there is not that respect and politeness to elders and fellow community members; yet he has the same attitude and respect as I do. How is this possible then?

Surely Matty, you must look at the cultural diversity in this country, and see the difference our environment has on us, but also see the differences within those cultures and regions. If we were not at all in control of our thought process; then either ALL of Afghanistan would be fighting against us, or ALL of Afghanistan would be fighting against the Taliban.....but then the Taliban wouldn't exist; so they wouldn't be fighting at all....or the Taliban would be all the nation, and no one would have opposed them.

You can actually do a small scale experiment on this. Set up a fish tank big enough to house more than one fish. purchase two fish; the same size and age; same species and all; and put them into the tank at the same time. Their brains do not function on the same level as ours; and so them not having the ability to process the information presented to them like we do; means they are even more susceptible to their environmental influence. If your theory is correct; then both these fish should be the same size; and have the same personality. I will let you figure out for yourself what the outcome would be.

latitude61: Matty,
I agree with you from a rationale perspective. However, I do not think that your theory takes into account the spontaneous and irrational decisions that people make in day to day life. I agree that the path ahead is alot of times based on the path behind. However, every once in while, someone breaks from that path and takes an irrational and sometimes destructive break from what they have been programmed to do. This is human nature, and entirely unpredictable

Mari_Blue: A simple formula to answer this thread:
E = F Event = Feeling

E-Event = I-Interpretation = F-Feeling = A-Action

E = F: When an event occurs, we generally experience a FEELING, an emotional reaction. We tend to believe that the EVENT is the cause of that feeling. However, in actuality it is not the event, but our interpretation of the event that creates the feeling – or stimulates our feelings. The event stimulates the interpretation which causes the feelings: E = I = F. When we become aware of what our mind says in response to any given event, we can choose whether we will use old interpretation or begin living with a new, more supportive and self-loving view of the event. When we change our interpretation – our mind talk – about any given event, it changes our actions:
E = I = F = A. Our interpretation not only affects how we feel, but ultimately results in our choice of ACTIONS.

*Interpretation: Automatic thoughts and perceptions based upon attitudes and belief systems which are developed in early childhood and carries through to adulthood. Where you were born is where you lived, and where you lived you learned, and what you learned you practiced, and what you practiced you became.

Thus, when you are confronted with any kind of event, you can "interpret" that event as negative, which creates negative feelings, which will result in negative actions. If you "interpret" the event as positive, you will have positive feelings which will result in positive actions.
Simply, our thoughts create our reality.

Mari_Blue: And I will add this for further explanation:

Shaped By Our Past

As much as we might like to believe that we are self-determined and self-directed, each of us is shaped by our past; who you are today is a mix of what you came into this world with and all your subsequent experiences.
We all tend to repeat what we learned in childhood. Whatever patterns are familiar, they are almost universally repeated in adulthood until at such time as they are identified and changed.

And…
You re-create in your adult life emotionally upsetting situations very similar to the unresolved conflicts and incidents in your childhood - only the characters and settings have changed.
.
If you are willing to deepen your awareness of the role your family of origin is playing in your life today, you can begin the process of self-empowerment and self-change, leaving the past behind you and becoming the creator of your new life mission.

MattyD89: okay hommies,



We are built up from our genetics and our mentality. Our genetics are way beyond our personal control. We do no deicide in any fasion how are genetics make us up. As well, our mentality is how we preceive the world due to our experiances in our enviroment and how our genetics are built up. Again something we cannot control. So the very essence of who we are is not because of our own free will, but because of our enviorment and our genetics (both of which, I say again, are beyond our contorl). Therefore every decision we make, or think we make, has been "pre determined".

we cannot controll out genetics or our enviorment therefore we cannot controll our mentalilty which makes our "decisions" for us.

I'm not saying were all mind contorlled robots, but our thoughts and actions are not as free as they might seem.

In an essense we are completly free, and in an essese we are completly contorlled.

Do you think Obama would be president if he would ahve had a differnet upbrining? Or Bush, or Stalin, or Hitler, ect.

All these people would be completly differnt if brought up in differnt circumstances (thier enivomrent).



I love how I have had about a million people on here tell me I'm wrong yet NO ONE can explain to me what the f@xw free will is, where it comes from, and how it works. Unless thier answer is you can think about differnt outcomes and you decide which one to choose. Yet WHY do you "decide" the certian path? Oh yea, becuase of you genetics and enviroment creating your mentality.

Mari_Blue: How you perceive the world (environment), and the choices you make are solely based on two factors: Nurture and nature.
A lesson on "culture" for you......

Culture is a body of learned beliefs, traditions and guides for behavior that are shared among members of any human society. The key word is learned. The customary behavior that distinguishes one human society from another is behavior that the members have acquired by observation, by imitation, or by instruction at the hands of other members of that group.

One of the outstanding features of human society is the ability to bestow meaning on things or acts that individuals encounter, create or are dictated by and within the society - and then learn to adapt these things or acts as part of a “real” world experience.

MattyD89: haha funny how you said learned. how do we learn? through our enviomrent.

Mari_Blue: As Matty has been trying to explain, the term "free-will" is misleading. You are who you are based on your genetic make-up and how you were nurtured. And your choices can reflect those two factors. In a sense that would be "controlling" as Matty has explained.

MattyD89: mari blue thank you. well put

Euantron: But again there is no imaginable way that it could be otherwise. It's as if you're wanting to suggest it would be preferable if we could chose who we will become without those past factors adding into it and controling it - but we have to be something in the 1st place to make that decision on who we will become. You just cant get a person from nothing. I know what you mean that we never really had the chance to chose who we are - that just sort of happened - although all through our lives most of us still actively make choices on who we want to be based on all those factors. Sure the environment is controling in who we become and what we do... but thats a much weaker claim than the opening one of; there is no free will.

MattyD89: i disagree hommie.

its suggesting the same thing. just in other words.

Euantron: You clearly do but I don't see your grounds for it Matty. You're defining free will as a perfect aspect seperate from just about anything. Such a thing isn;t possible and noone claims thats what free will is. Like, look up autonomy - as i understand it thats what we mean when we say 'free will'. You're very right that free will is a difficult so and so to define but thats a problem for someone trying to shoot it down as much as it is for those trying to defend it. If you want to talk about 'freedom,' as in 'ability,' to make any choice then ill happily agree there is no such thing. Thats the main area where the environement(s) dictate all the rules. But 'free will,' as in the making of choices by a sentient being - autonomy. Your argument doesn't really touch that for the reasons i've already given. Explaining the process of why a decision gets made doesnt change who made that decision - and requiring us to give an account of free will that cant be explained would in reality make a real problem because then things become arbitrary and chaotic. I don't see anything important or damaging about you or other determinists making this case - perhaps just further pressure for everyone to shore up their common definition of freedom. You must at least see that intuitively, pragmaticly and realisticly your case changes nothing. Even if someone were to accept that the environement being controlling and there being no free will are the same thing.... then all they have to do is say fine: 'Now this is what we mean by free will - decisions we seem to make that are actually a result of the environment.' Even if they gave you all that ground - nothing will have changed other than semantics.

reefer_ruby: we have been brainwashed to perceive reality a certain way.

FogofWar: "We all tend to repeat what we learned in childhood. Whatever patterns are familiar, they are almost universally repeated in adulthood until at such time as they are identified and changed."

Our past and experiences do shape our thought yes; there is no one here denying this...but what Matty cannot seem to comprehend is that the power of the human mind gives us the free thought to identify our learnings; as you have said, and change them.

If I was completely shaped, without free will, by my environment and not able to identify my learnings and change them; then I would be a Roman Catholic farmer....yet I am an Agnostic soldier. Matty's theory; while sound in "theory" has the same problem as most theories....just too many variables. Theories always look good on paper; but when you put them to reality; it is always drastically different.

"And…
You re-create in your adult life emotionally upsetting situations very similar to the unresolved conflicts and incidents in your childhood - only the characters and settings have changed."

Ask a zen master what direction your way is; and he will clarify this for you.


"We are built up from our genetics and our mentality. Our genetics are way beyond our personal control. We do no deicide in any fasion how are genetics make us up. As well, our mentality is how we preceive the world due to our experiances in our enviroment and how our genetics are built up."

Genetics are the traits of one's genes. Genes are a scientific name for the molecular makeup of DNA; they are what give you hereditary traits; like hair and eye colour; immunity; blood type, s*^, race, etc.

Mentality is the decisive thought process of individuals. Mentality is a word that discredits your ideology.

How is our environment beyond our control? If you do not like your environment; what do you do? You leave!


"I'm not saying were all mind contorlled robots, but our thoughts and actions are not as free as they might seem."

I am not saying that our thoughts and actions are NOT a result of what we have learned from the past; but rather that we have the FREE MIND to let those past experiences make us decide to change things or not. This is free will.


"I love how I have had about a million people on here tell me I'm wrong yet NO ONE can explain to me what the fzw~ free will is, where it comes from, and how it works."

I can explain it to you in one word. ZEN

"Unless thier answer is you can think about differnt outcomes and you decide which one to choose. Yet WHY do you "decide" the certian path? Oh yea, becuase of you genetics and enviroment creating your mentality"

Because you limit your mind to following a set path. There is no path. This is the essence of zen young grasshopper.


"Culture is a body of learned beliefs, traditions and guides for behavior that are shared among members of any human society."

this is true; and if Matty's theory were correct; then no one would challenge their culture. Many Islamic people who had been raised to believe in public stonings have foughten to ban their practice.

Your theory of interperatation is clearly visible, Mari Blue, when one looks to religions. Where did they come from? According to Matty they would have either had to come from our environmental experience (which cannot explain the Christian belief of immaculate conception or ressurrection) or he must believe that these stories are in fact true; but since there are several interperatations of the basic principles of religion (which are more or less all the same in principle); it is clearly visible that people have the free will to challenge what they are shown and told to think. Free will!

FogofWar: "As Matty has been trying to explain, the term "free-will" is misleading. You are who you are based on your genetic make-up and how you were nurtured."

No it is not. Genetic makeup plays no role in your thought process from learned behaviors; it plays a role in your bodies molecular structure; but not the thought process that you do in fact learn in life.

I understand what you are saying; but Matty has said that a rapist is only a rapist because nature made him that way...this is pure rubbish no matter how you analyse it.


"we have been brainwashed to perceive reality a certain way."

Reefer Ruby, YOU have been brainwashed to perceive reality a certain way; but a free mind is not brainwashed by anything. You cannot 'brainwash' the unwilling; this is free will.

"A man asked the master; what is the way. The master told him: "There is no way", the man responded, I understand."

There is one major, major flaw in your theory Matty; Zen. The art of Zen defies what you are claiming. Zen teaches you to forget

Think about it....if you learn to be zen, then it was taught to you...hence why they say you need to learn to forget. Yes your environmental experience creates a barrier of limitation to your thought process. Zen is the art of breaking through and overcoming this barrier; to think, free of limitation and influence....to have a mind "free of thought". This is what they refer to in Zen as "the Way"....when the man asked the Zen master what was the way; the Zen Master replied there is NO way. If there was a "way" as you perceive; it would be an outside influence...hence the way is a way of NO way.

"The way without way, technique without technique" -Bruce Lee

Zen awakening is the ability to overcome the learnings of zen; and break that barrier; achieving total thoughtlessness, and therefore ZERO outside influence...learning to forget.

The basic principle is this: For every decision there is two options; the one you have learned from the past; and the unknown. Humans are afraid of the unknown; and so instinctively (instinct is what motivates you to move without having to think) you tend to venture to the known; even if it is potentially damaging. Courage is not the lack of fear; but having that fear; and overcoming it. A courageous person can break this mental barrier of limitation...they can choose to accept the unknown; and thus; venture from their environmental impact. To do this is essentially the idea of Zen.

Yes, it takes learning to overcome your environmental influence (like Mari Blue stated earlier); but it can be accomplished; and at this point, the FREE MIND will emerge.

You are a product of your environment; and there is no free will; because you will not allow yourself to overcome this. You have not had a "Zen awakening".