Religion (Page 5)
sisiblackdog: Faith is beliefe without evidence. Beliefe is an assumption. All you have is rationalization and sophistry. Weather it is faith or belief, reason and logic add immagination and creativity and if it gives you meaning and purpose then it is substantive and if it lends itself to committing actions that are contributitory in a positive way to the world around you. You have created and adopted values in which are not ambigious or contrary because they are flexible and they are yours. Morality or as you would put it "following God's laws are enforced by oppresion by those who are suspect. Values are created by one's self and authenticity (not sin) is determined by how well we live up to them.
Zanjan: "Faith is beliefe without evidence."
Faith in what? For example, if I know that someone absolutely never steals, I can have faith he wont steal should I put him in charge of my jewels. This is no assumption - if I know something, plenty of evidence abounds.
Blind faith is belief without knowledge. For example, one reads in religious text that "the world will end". They've interpreted this to mean planet earth will dissolve; all living things will be vaporized in an instant. Based on their own mental construct, they come to believe that's the truth, despite having absolutely no supporting evidence of that.
Assumptions, on the other hand, are based on a small bit of evidence - not enough evidence to provide knowledge.
For example, let's say a murder is committed in the same room you were in 30 minutes previously. There's a cigarette butt in the ashtray that's the same brand as yours. Based on that, can one truthfully say they know you're the murderer?
Zanjan: I agree that many absurd beliefs are meaningless to others so, we simply dismiss them. Easy to do when it's just one person's belief. However, if there's a large group holding said belief, they'll come across others who say to them, 'You all believe in a lie and that harms souls".
We know that wherever a group adopts one or two lies, they adopt many. No good can come of it. This is where the clash begins because the lies are passed on to the innocent young. So, this is a moral question. One can't eliminate a moral issue by countering it with other moral defects - oppression and compulsion.
Yes, we need to look at values. If we value the human race, we'll work towards its peace, stability, co-operation and prosperity by encouraging the growth of same value in others. Differences of belief won't hold us back - when we make friends with people, we don't first ask them what their beliefs are, we just shake hands. From then on, we're doing things with them that we value.
We can say we value this or that but quickly it becomes apparent what we truly value.
We can fake identities for a short time but we can't be something we aren't. Every human God ever created, He created to be a noble, spiritual being. This is the core of our essence - deep in our soul - that's *what* we are. It's all a matter of fostering each one's potential to further develop *who* we are.
Nicotina: You are more than welcome to believe in whatever god you choose. Please do not expect others to share your belief.
Zanjan: Many people share the same beliefs because nobody really owns them. Very few are actually new anyway.
Zanjan: If you're looking for acceptance, you'll need to adopt some beliefs that have been around for a very long time.
Cenababy: ZAN, athiest have beliefs, the belief that life is all about them and there is no God, that everything is just random. So moot point.
Zanjan: Like said earlier in this topic, such people need acceptance. The difference between believers and non-believers is who they choose to be accepted by.
Cenababy: I accept the fact that people are who they are, that they can reject God all they want, i am not their judge, God is. But, i dont have to condone a persons behavior, look around at hapoening, Godless society.
Zanjan: Agreed. However, we do judge - we have to be able to discern the difference between good and bad behavior and how we're going to respond to it. So, that's not the same thing as judging a soul's worth.
Zanjan: Case in point: At work, in a meeting with my boss, another co-worker, and an in-house trainer about how to deal with a particular client's issues (she's mentally delayed). The client knows how to keep house but doesn't do anything except sit in her chair all day when not going out.
The trainer directly asked me, "Why doesn't she do any household tasks? Do you think she (the client) is just lazy?" My co-worker interjected "Oh, she's lazy alright!".
I said to the trainer, "I can't say that - you have to ask her. I once did. She explained that she hated doing dishes, hated exercise, hated yada yada and so forth. So, I understand she doesn't do any of those things because she hates doing them".
The trainer asked how I responded to that. I replied, ' I'd explained to the client that nobody does household tasks for their own entertainment; we do them because it's necessary. Instead of the pleasure happening while we're doing it, that comes at the end. We're grateful we're able to do something for ourselves and we love to see the results of a job well done - that makes us proud and happy. Everyone loves to feel useful.'
Of course, I knew what I said to my client would all go in one ear and out the other. The point here is that I managed to get the facts without criticizing my client, or portraying her in a negative light, either to her face or behind her back.
Zanjan: Now, if that event had happened when I was 21, before I became religious, I'd have said what that co-worker said. That co-worker was 50 years old.
From the get-go, we're all given choices in life. We have the gift of free will so that's to be respected. Fact: that client chose instant gratification over delayed gratification. The former is the first choice of the under-developed mind and heart.
Zanjan: My parents had no religion; thus they had no information, no divine wisdom to offer me. I grew up as a rough gem, as it were. I became a street urchin, continuing my education at the school of hard knocks with its fair share of embarrassments and angst. I made some bad decisions and that carried over into my marriage and as my children were born.
I think, if not for my children, I'd have only gotten worse in that state. So, I was 31 years old when I became religious. My, what tough sledding that was for awhile!
I had so much to learn, and was so thirsty for knowledge, I felt I couldn't learn fast enough.
How much easier these lessons would have been for me had my parents saved time by gradually paving the way, teaching me some of the spiritual realities!
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Nicotina: Zanjan, to help your client without criticizing, nor portraying her in a negative light, either to her face or behind her back, is treating the person with respect. As human beings we ought to treat others with respect at all times. Yes we fail at times. Respect is not dependant on being religious.
I think many of us reach a point in our life where we realize that the path we are on is one that will hurt ourselves and others. We change because it is the right thing to do. You might have found that religion was the way for you. Religion was not the way for me.
The question I often ask myself in potentially argumentative situations is "Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?". Mostly I choose to be happy and that means I let go of the need to be right, let go of my ego and ultimately treat the other person/s with much more kindness and humanity.
Zanjan: "Respect is not dependant on being religious."
Then how come everybody I've ever met who's not religious engages in backbiting? That's 100%. Not saying religious people don't do it; indeed, some do but not at full saturation point! (barring the political arena)
The religions of God teach that courtesy is good conduct and back-biting is bad conduct. Had it not become a serious problem, God wouldn't have had to make a law to address that.
However, when religious people don't honour high standards, they're condoning lower standards, joining the ranks of non-believers. Together, this is what brings society down. All too common is the pathetic notion that one has to earn respect; that gives license to act like an ass, blaming others for one's own misdemeanor.
Everybody changes - nothing remains static. If one isn't going forward, they're going backwards. You can't move very far if you don't know where you're going; if you've never been there, you need a map.
Zanjan: ""Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?". "
That reminds me of a traffic intersection - most drivers have forgotten how the 2-way stop signs work. Sure, I have the legal right- of - way, but if I happily take it, I could be dead.
Yes, I want to be happy - $100,000 could make my world go 'round, greatly increasing my happiness..... unless I steal it. That's why I'll do the right thing and keep my mitts off what doesn't belong to me. I'm much happier not having to always look over my shoulder; so, it appears you can be right and happy at the same time.
Yes, sometimes, we have to let something go; when we let 'ourselves' go, that will result in disaster. We can never get rid of our ego (self); since it's built in, we can only master it, as a rider does a wild horse - that's not easy. The only way is to rise above it with immense courage, discipline and strength of self-sacrifice. That power doesn't come out of a vacuum.
Once a master, failure is NOT an option - a master always sleeps with one eye open.
sisiblackdog: Zanjan you are the mistress of rationalization. The fallacy of your statements, though somtimes disquised as questions reveals that what ever logic you think you posesess ie totaly non sequitar. I think you see your self as a teacher and maybe you have found your class room. Your proofs of the existence of God only brings to light the paradoxes that only be resolved by his elimination. I stopped into see somthing intresting and I only found the vague cliche's I was indoctrinated as a child-But you sound pleasent and sweet and I wish you all the best. May you thoughts be happy and clear. lmf
Nicotina: Zanjan, it seems I did not explain myself well enough.
We can let go of our own self importance (ie ego) in situations where we are apt to become quarrelsome with a person. For instance, many times at a drive through the order may be incorrect. I love Tim Hortons and was treating myself to a coffee. The serve gave me a black coffee instead of one with cream. She was adamant that I had ordered a black coffee. Now in the past I would probably have become angry over this and argued to prove I was right, as I felt that first bit of anger raising it's ugly head, I asked myself if I wanted to be happy or if I wanted to be right. I chose to be happy. Letting go of the need to be right made all the difference. The lady kindly corrected the order and we had a bit of a laugh.
We never know what might be going on in another person's life. Maybe the lady was having a bad day, maybe most customers had been rude to her, maybe she had a loved one at home who was ill & she was worried sick about them. In that situation I made the choice to be happy and that decision reflected upon the lady in her change of mood and in how the rest of my day went much better due to being polite and understanding.
Zanjan: sisiblackdog: "ie totaly non sequitar. "
That's "totally".....and..... "non-sequitur"
""you see your self as a teacher "
Only in front of willing students.
"Your proofs of the existence of God....."
I don't recall wasting a single sentence on proving the existence of God. That's for atheists to do. It's not my fault they failed.
I wish you all the best in your spiritual journey.
Zanjan: Nicotina, in my experience, the clerks at Tims are hard of hearing. There isn't a time where I haven't had to repeat my order right at the counter, regardless of which outlet or which city.
I know my voice carries so, to be fair, I've thought the problem might be all that beeping and machines running in the background. That's the downside of not having a wall between the kitchen and cash register.
In my experience, they're pretty good at taking back a wrong order and replacing it free of charge. So, I'm glad you let go of the need to bark your displeasure. You're quite right - we never know what's going on in a stranger's life. Making things worse for them makes it worse for the people who come after us as well.