What do You think of islam? please all must write and contribute :) (Page 17)

Zanjan
Zanjan: "We don’t know what existed and what did not."

The Words of God existed and had their immediate effect. God doesnt deliver a Revelation only to have it unknown. Man is impotent, God isn't.

The Light of Divine Love and Knowledge explodes through the dark and pulses into hearts and inspires the minds the moment God speaks - this is how those first followers already knew many of the Revelations before they heard about it or knew its Name.

They saw the signs of the times; they were receptive souls because their hearts were made ready. They accepted because they already thought that way. They said, "This fits me - this is what I am!".

The heat of that Wave lasts for several hundred years. It was so powerful, the fiercest of antagonists eventually crossed the floor.

I'm in no place to challenge what happened to anyone thousands of years ago. I see, from the writings, what the spirit and knowledge was, despite many things being omitted. There's enough to know what their storymind was and how it fit into the rest of the world's history.

Stories get told over and over again because history repeats itself - only the names change. Could it be that this is because people forget the lessons? You might notice that, each time, something new to the story is added; history is a coil, like a slinky - it's going somewhere. There's no hope for those who can't spot its direction.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Groovius Maximus
Groovius Maximus: Often the reason stories are retold and repackaged is to make them relevant to new generations. I think you make at least one valid point here: people do forget the lessons of yesterday. Hence the old gift in a new box.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Yet for some reason, new lessons are learned and civilization advances. You need more than gift-wrapping to cause that.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: I have to agree with you, Zanjan. Moses and Paul started out as conmen and Muhammad became one.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Since when did we agree? You feeling ok?

Groovius is right about one thing - gifts are a lot more interesting when there's an element of mystery; one can admire the shield of hidden things for a long time, building anticipation. Soon the Great New Book will be released! God knows how we love a surprise.

He waits until you've worked up a good lather than He RIPS the sun and moon apart for you.

If the gift were something like herpes, word would get around pretty fast that this was NOT a good experience. Or, if you received the same gift as the last time, you'd be rather put off.

The Revelators didn't enrich themselves with worldly goods - They were thieves of hearts.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Muhammad had nine wives.
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Groovius Maximus
Groovius Maximus: Why are the wives of Muhammad relevant, Ghost? The bible claims King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.
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Fractured fairy tale
Fractured fairy tale: Because Mohammed is the Moral figure in the Koran
King Solomon isn't the Moral figure in the Bible
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Groovius Maximus
Groovius Maximus: You frame the subject as one of morality, Devil, when it is not. What you’re doing is using today’s standards and applying them to the mores of a different culture, in a faraway land, nearly 1500 years in the past. It's misguided at best. Also, your name is not Ghostgeek. I’m sure the man can speak for himself without you confusing the issue.
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Fractured fairy tale
Fractured fairy tale: Is that what Im doing Groovis . Thanks for setting me straight then .
I beg to beg to differ again.
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Groovius Maximus
Groovius Maximus: You're welcome. I'm here to help.
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Fractured fairy tale
Fractured fairy tale: Hee Sorry I find you as Confusing as Zanjan
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Because Muslims are supposed to have only four wives but Muhammad granted himself a special dispensation to increase his harem.
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Groovius Maximus
Groovius Maximus: Zanjan can better speak to this subject than I ever could. I'm not Muslim, after all. I just read at Wikipedia the following: “Muhammad was monogamous for 25 years when married to his first wife, Khadija bint Khuwaylid. After her death in 619 CE, he over time married a number of women, most of them widows, for reasons of family bonds and to provide for them after his companions had died. His life is traditionally delineated by two epochs: pre-hijra (emigration) in Mecca, a city in western Arabia, from the year 570 to 622 CE, and post-hijra in Medina, from 622 until his death in 632. All but two of his marriages were contracted after the Hegira (or Hijra - migration to Medina).”
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Groovius Maximus
Groovius Maximus: Also, Ghostgeek, you’re citing a double standard, which is a fair point. If Muslims are supposed to be restricted to no more than four wives (I have no idea why anyone would desire more than one, because surely that would drive a man into the desert so he could attain some peace) on what religious or other basis did Muhammad make exceptions for himself? I haven’t an answer to that one. So, on this particular issue, I think I’m leaning in your direction.

My original objection, however, was that you raised this subject apropos of nothing. No one was discussing the issue. While I’m at it, you said you agreed with Zanjan about something she never argued. That the patriarchs, including Muhammad, were conmen. When did she say anything resembling this? I‘m surprised she didn’t call you out on it.
(Edited by Groovius Maximus)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Polygamy was never wrong in the Bible or elsewhere's - it wasn't practiced the way most people think. There were entirely practical reasons for it.

As in Muhammad's time, there was a tremendous surplus of females in the population and none of them could support themselves or bring income to their own families. Unless a parent could pre-arrange a marriage for their daughter when she was a young child, her future was considered nil and her plight would be terrible. Generally, females inherited nothing from their spouses or families.

The wealthier men stepped in to care for and support them but often had so many wives (harems of hundreds), those who weren't his favourites received none of his attentions or favours. In Muhammad's time, females were such a burden that parents killed their daughters in infancy by burying them alive.

Muhammad sought to rectify those problems. He taught the right principles of marriage - there had to be a solid relationship with spouses, and the husband had to be just and fair with all of them.

A convert could keep his current wives until they died; otherwise, the maximum was 4 wives and one couldn't divorce a wife in order to marry someone he thought was better. This law was enacted later on in Muhammad's life.

Muhammad had children only from two marriages - His first marriage (Khadijah) and one after that (Maria). He had a total of 13 wives, not all at the same time. According to Arabian custom, marriages were contracted for political reasons. Of those extra marriages, 9 of them were never consummated.


(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Groovius, you know, a lot of Christians thought their missionaries and clergy shouldn't marry because Jesus never did. That's not what one could call reasoning since it doesn't identify a purpose and isn't consistent with other Revelators.

I have no idea why Jesus decided believers should be monogamous when Jews weren't. Maybe it was just an introduction? After all, He didnt approve of serial monogamy so He must have wanted to focus on a single lesson. People have always chosen to have one mate for life - had nothing to do with any law, just personal preference.

Personally, I think if you were brought up in a society where monogamy was the standard, it would be really difficult to switch over to a polygamous arrangement unless you had some seedy ulterior motives underlying the choice.

I mean, it's not like the hard switch from being a meat-eater to a vegetarian - you can't find anything underhanded about those who choose a healthy diet.

(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: I didn't remark on Ghost's "Conmen" because it's not new for him. He's been saying that for years and, keeps saying it because he thinks he's going to get a different objection each time. Personally, I'll probably never run out of them.

Conmen don't get emotional when their target bites the hook. They remain composed and quiet. Their happiness begins after they've made a clean getaway, especially when it's untrackable.....but they can't really share that.

Whereas, when a Prophet conquers just one, all the heavens sing and angels party, shouting "Hey, we got one!" Every heart is delighted and excited....hugs by the troops.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Well, Paul certainly got emotional over money. He not only went out of his way to collect it, he made a trenchant defense of the right of preachers to a salary.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: But turning to the greatest conman of all time, Moses, let us just say that he told some whoppers. The Ten Plagues of Egypt were nothing of the kind. A little research can show that they were nothing more than what one would expect to see in that country in any spring. Well, all but the last plague. That one was an out and out lie. It never happened. The first born didn't die en masse.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: For a book that claims to be from God, the uncreated word of Allah that comes from above the seven heavens before the universe was created, it strangely seems to come quite conveniently to Muhammad’s rescue time after time. From getting involved in his marital problems to giving him special permissions and moral justifications to fulfill his personal needs and desires. ...

Despite this, many of the verses in the Quran seem to have been revealed JUST for Prophet Muhammad’s convenience and even involve seemingly petty or private household matters that could have been resolved without God’s involvement.

A bunch of his companions came to his house and they stayed too long, but he felt embarrassed to tell them to leave, so Allah himself decided to let them know to go home!

O you who have believed, do not enter the houses of the Prophet except when you are permitted for a meal, without awaiting its readiness. But when you are invited, then enter; and when you have eaten, disperse without seeking to remain for conversation. Indeed, that [behavior] was troubling the Prophet, and he is shy of [dismissing] you. But Allah is not shy of the truth. (33:53)

[ http://abdullahsameer.com/blog/muhammads-just-in-time-revelations/ ]
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Groovius Maximus
Groovius Maximus: Those are some of the reasons Abraham and Moses are viewed today by secular scholars as mythical. Clearly the fantastic acts attributed to them did not occur. Regarding Moses, there do not seem to be any Egyptian records recounting the events claimed by the bible in this regard. So rather than insisting Moses was a confidence man, it's more reasonable (due to a complete lack of evidence backing up those biblical assertions) to conclude Moses never existed at all. Likewise the others. Excluding Muhammad. I can't speak to Muhammad's existence or nonexistence. At the moment I'm giving the benefit of the doubt he did exist. Until, that is, some contrary evidence is unearthed to give me reason to change my views.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Narrated Aisha: I used to look down upon those ladies who had given themselves to Allah’s Apostle and I used to say, “Can a lady give herself (to a man)?” But when Allah revealed: “You (O Muhammad) can postpone (the turn of) whom you will of them (your wives), and you may receive any of them whom you will; and there is no blame on you if you invite one whose turn you have set aside (temporarily).’ (33.51) I said (to the Prophet), “I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires.” (Bukhari and Muslim)
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Read Exodus. It has very detailed knowledge of what it would have been like to have been in Egypt and to have travelled to Midian. Whoever wrote it must have experienced the journey first hand.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: And to round off our little excursion into Muhammad's tinkering with the Quran:

Another interesting example is when Omar made suggestions to Prophet Muhammad, and then miraculously “Allah” revealed the same thing. Omar used to actually boast about how Allah “agreed with him” on these matters. One of them was at Makkah taking the Sanctuary of Ibrahim as a place of prayer, the second was regarding the wives of the prophet wearing hijab, and the third was that he told the Prophet if your wives don’t listen to you, Allah will give you better wives. In all these three cases it seems like Allah really liked these suggestions and decided to include it in the Quran.

[ http://abdullahsameer.com/blog/muhammads-just-in-time-revelations/ ]
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