Historical Jesus Chat Room Historical Jesus Chat Room

Mysti the Gamer To clarify what I have already said, I was accused of being dishonest about my reasons for leaving behind fundagelical Christianity
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Lumpenproletariat He insists that Jesus was historical, and says that all legitimate historians agree with him.
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Lumpenproletariat What were your real reasons?
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Mysti the Gamer Well, if Bart Ehrman says that Jesus existed, that's no reason to believe it, because he's a dirty liar, right?
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Lumpenproletariat No, he's mostly correct, on most of his information. But he's dishonest on some points.
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Mysti the Gamer It was a process that took years -- not easy to summarize. A great deal of it came down to a lack of evidence
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Mysti the Gamer The evidence I thought was there turned out not to be
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Lumpenproletariat I abandoned Bible inerrancy when I was about 30, after many years of questioning.
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Mysti the Gamer Well, that's good
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Lumpenproletariat But the facts about Jesus doing the miracle acts is not based on Bible inerrancy.
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Lumpenproletariat The accounts agree on what happened, written within a reasonable time span after the events, 1st century, nothing contradicting it, so it's probably true. Extra sources = more credible.
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Lumpenproletariat no infallibility is needed. If all the accounts about it say it happened, near to the time, then it's credible.
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Lumpenproletariat unlike other stories, myths, about the pagan gods, heroes etc.
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Lumpenproletariat not appearing in writings until 500 or 1000 years later = not good evidence
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Lumpenproletariat Much of the legends can be true -- the Trojan War, etc. But miracle claims are not credible if there's only one source, or it's 1000 years later.
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Mysti the Gamer If you found out you were wrong, would you regret living your life the way you are right now?
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Lumpenproletariat I'd be disappointed to learn there was evidence I didn't know about before.
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Lumpenproletariat I'd have to learn of some new evidence.
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Lumpenproletariat There have been new discoveries. E.g., Dead Sea Scrolls, etc.
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Mysti the Gamer Do you think it would change the way you live your life?
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Mysti the Gamer Yeah, they were a cool find
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Lumpenproletariat Those scrolls cast doubt on much of the Christian beliefs.
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Lumpenproletariat But not at all on the miracle acts of Jesus.
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Lumpenproletariat They show how much Christian symbols, traditions were borrowed from the earlier culture.
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Mysti the Gamer So being a believer to you does not mean embracing Christianity?
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Lumpenproletariat some of it, maybe the most important part. But not all the religious doctrines, rituals, etc.
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Lumpenproletariat not the Trinity e.g.
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Lumpenproletariat There's no need to
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Lumpenproletariat "embrace" baptism, eucharist, Trinity, Virgin Birth, etc.
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Lumpenproletariat But that he did the miracle acts and resurrected after he was killed is based on the evidence, not borrowed from the earlier culture.
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Lumpenproletariat An important point I've figured out is to distinguish fact from fiction. It's a fundamental principle.
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Mysti the Gamer That's pretty basic, isn't it?
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Lumpenproletariat That Jesus was born in Bethlehem is legend, fiction, not based on evidence. But that he rose back to life is based on several written accounts near the time it happened. many witnesses
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Lumpenproletariat It's basic, and yet many believers and also disbelievers seem to not care and lump all the beliefs together, without distinguishing them.
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Lumpenproletariat the correct vs. the incorrect beliefs
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Mysti the Gamer So you would say you believe that Jesus performed miracles and rose to dead and that you believe there is sufficient evidence to believe as you do?
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Mysti the Gamer That is pretty important to you, isn't it?
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Lumpenproletariat rose back to life after being killed
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Lumpenproletariat Of course it's important, if it's true.
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Mysti the Gamer Yes, but am I also detecting some personal meaning that you attach to the idea?
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Lumpenproletariat I have to add though that the other miracles --- walking on water etc. -- are probably not true. It's easy to explain how they could have gotten added later ---- but only after he had become well recognized as a miracle healer.
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Lumpenproletariat Such ability to heal is significant, and also returning to life after being killed. It's important if it did happen.
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Mysti the Gamer But what does it mean *to you*?
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Lumpenproletariat "personal meaning"? just that it's important. It matters.
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Lumpenproletariat the possibility of eternal life matters.
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Mysti the Gamer Is it simply a matter of, "Wow, it's really cool that some guy beat death"?
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Mysti the Gamer So you believe that Jesus has made eternal life possible?
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Lumpenproletariat Yes, or he showed that it's possible. And it's good for us to believe it. Belief is important.
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Lumpenproletariat or believing the truth about something that important
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Lumpenproletariat We don't know his identity, or his place in this. Whether there is anyone else with similar power, or also connected to such power.
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Lumpenproletariat So it's a special life-giving power which he demonstrated to us.
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Mysti the Gamer Do you believe that you know how to benefit from that power?
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Lumpenproletariat He wanted us to believe. There are many quotes which show this. Believing was something he emphasized.
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Lumpenproletariat The most frequent quote attributed to him is: "Your faith has saved you."
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Lumpenproletariat Of course we can't be certain which quotes of Jesus are authentic and which ones just added to him later.
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Mysti the Gamer You and I are in agreement there
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Lumpenproletariat But before his time, there was no claim that "faith" or "believing" saves people.
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Mysti the Gamer The Greek word translated as "faith" can also mean "faithfulness"
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Lumpenproletariat So it seems this admonition to believe comes from him. This "faith" requirement was not part of religion prior to the 1st century AD.
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Lumpenproletariat The word is kicked around quite a bit.
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Lumpenproletariat There are many places where this word is used and means only to accept a proposition as fact, and not anything like faithfulness or loyalty etc.
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Lumpenproletariat Just to believe something is true.
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Lumpenproletariat E.g., when he said "Your faith has saved you" -- he said this to persons who had not done anything meritorious.
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Lumpenproletariat They only asked him to heal them. No indication that they did anything praiseworthy.
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Lumpenproletariat The normal religious teaching, up to that time, was that we're saved by obeying God, doing religious rituals, good deeds etc.
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Mysti the Gamer No, Jews at that time were anticipating that the world would be saved, regardless of whether they were doing religious rituals
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Lumpenproletariat But they preached that obedience to the Law was essential as a condition.
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Lumpenproletariat They distinguished between the saved and the damned. The latter were those not in compliance with the Law.
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Mysti the Gamer The Prophets anticipated a day when everyone, Jew and non-Jew alike, would be saved
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Mysti the Gamer You're taking a very Protestant approach to understanding Judaism and early Christianity
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Mysti the Gamer The New Perspective on Paul has been a helpful corrective in this regard
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Lumpenproletariat The Prophets condemned those who did not comply with the Law as they preached it.
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Mysti the Gamer The Prophets' messages were for Israel, not individuals. They were concerned with corporate salvation
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Lumpenproletariat All Jews and most Christians believed God would save those who obeyed the Law or performed good works.
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Lumpenproletariat The Prophets condemned individuals who were disobedient to the Law, as they preached it.
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Mysti the Gamer The focus on individual salvation did not come about until after the first century
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Lumpenproletariat And they praised individuals who obeyed the Law, as they preached it or thought Moses taught it.
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Lumpenproletariat No, individual salvation was preached by the Gospel writers and Paul.
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Lumpenproletariat And healing was obviously an individual benefit, to the ones healed.
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Lumpenproletariat Also individual punishment and reward was preached long before the 1st century.
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Lumpenproletariat There were many different beliefs. Different interpretations. Including individual salvation, punishment or reward, etc.
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Mysti the Gamer I should run
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Mysti the Gamer Or walk rather
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Mysti the Gamer I am very sleepy
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Mysti the Gamer Take care of yourself
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FACT vs FICTION. Is Jesus only one of many ancient miracle myth heroes who resurrected? Every belief/disbelief entertained, questioned here. All infidels, apologists, heretics, trolls welcome.

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