Is There Something Wrong with the Concept of God? (Page 6)

Blackshoes: My opinion Mean Nothing !! Fact, Truth ,Reality means everything ! I don't give a rats a-s what anyone BELIEVES ! The truth will be revealed to everyone on the last day .The truth has been given too the World ' the World rejects it. That's they're problem .

orkanen: That's the thing, Blackshoes. Whatever "truth" you believe has been given to the World, is not agreed upon, even among Christians. Not to mention all the other religions available out there. If you believe _your_ personal flavour of Christianity is the right path, you're in a very huge club of individual believers. Just ask Chayi, or Froger, or Dadman, or Zanjan, or any other believer, for that matter. You squabble with each other over one ridiculous detail after the other. This is also how I know that what you follow isn't the "truth".



You're all individuals, you all have individual thoughts. Thus, what is your "truth" isn't the truth of the person sitting on the pew next to you. I'm sorry to say, but you've been had.

Zanjan: Ghost: “Unfortunately, believers are rather partial to a world of black and white where, if you don't state emphatically that God exists, you are branded an atheist. A world where there are no shades of grey.”


Not quite. Everyone knows that some people are undecided – those are called agnostics because they have unresolved doubts. Even amongst believers there can be lack of faith because they like to believe, they want to believe but haven’t the experience to trust. Only Holy people and Atheists have made up their mind.

You didn’t conceive a unicorn or snake – somebody told you about them and you don’t even know who you heard it from first. Same thing for God. What you create in your mind is nothing but a mix of that which you’ve already seen and heard. A rip off. That’s not conceiving, it’s perceiving. God and math says the part can’t comprehend the whole.

“What it does say is that in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Nothing, you'll note, about Him being alone”

No need. People already knew that. The opening scripture of the Hindu text says “And God was alone; there was no one to know Him”. That’s not a revelation to us; we know that only man, not the animal, has the ability to be aware of the presence of God and love Him. We know that humans weren't always around.

There's a moment in the cycle of the history where there isn’t one true believer left on earth, not a single person who has demonstrated they know Him because they’ve all fallen asleep. That’s when the Light of God bursts forth and brings life to the heart.

Yes, there is an “US”. Do you think God only speaks once, that the place where He is has time? Do you think He can’t speak across the eons, to all His Prophets in the past and future on any planet where they be in the universe? How limited 3 D earthly thinking is!

Blackshoes:

(You didn’t conceive a unicorn or snake – somebody told you about them and you don’t even know who you heard it from first. Same thing for God. What you create in your mind is nothing but a mix of that which you’ve already seen and heard. A rip off. That’s not conceiving, it’s perceiving. God and math says the part can’t comprehend the whole.)

1 Corinthians

2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

ROMANS

10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?



11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day.

trust1g4e: Jonah 1:17
17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Great
01419
TWOT - 315d
גָּדוֹל gadowl
gaw-dole'
from (01431)
or (shortened) gadol {gaw-dole'}; from ; great (in any sense); hence, older; also insolent:--+ aloud, elder(-est), + exceeding(-ly), + far, (man of) great (man, matter, thing,-er,-ness), high, long, loud, mighty, more, much, noble, proud thing, sore, (X ) very.
adj
great
large (in magnitude and extent)
in number
in intensity
loud (in sound)
older (in age)
in importance
important things
great, distinguished (of men)
God Himself (of God) subst
great things
haughty things
greatness n pr m

Fish
01709
TWOT - 401a
דָּג dag
Noun Masculine dawg
from (01711)
or (fully) dag (Nehemiah 13:16) {dawg}; from ; a fish (as prolific); or perhaps rather from (as timid); but still better from (in the sense of squirming, i.e. moving by the vibratory action of the tail); a fish (often used collectively):--fish.
fish

trust1g4e: Even if you don't want to believe the Jonah story, at least make sure you get the terms in the Bible passages correct. there is no specification of the creature Being a mammal or whale, as I have posted earlier, concerning the Whale Shark, there are large sea creatures in the ocean that are not classified as mammal capable of swallowing a human being.

ghostgeek: The largest bony fish is the Sunfish:

trust1g4e: The largest known fish the Whale Shark:

ghostgeek: Yes, cartilaginous fish. Seems fish come in two varieties.

trust1g4e: Indeed. I wish that I could post a picture I downloaded of a diver swimming just above one to show the contrast of size between the diver and one of those creatures mouth.

Zanjan: I'm not intending to interpret text - only to demonstrate a known symbolical form.

Water is the symbol of knowledge - the fish symbolizes a creature who is dependent on that body of knowledge, wherein it derives its food. In scripture, this creature hunts for truth.

If its a big fish, a term we still use today to denote a big name in a field of knowledge, a captain of industry, a maverick etc., then you're looking at the upper echelon - the who's who in society. The artists drive fashion but the learned drive the people's destiny.

In ancient times, religion was the primary source of knowledge and the clergy informed everyone of what's what. Yet over that, imperial leaders ruled and controlled the populace usually, oppressively.

Since this is religious text, we'll say the controlling powers would be the leaders or scholars in a religion, particularly the established, dominant religion. Johna - technically, the spirit of Johna, was hidden within their ranks. This much was a down to earth fact, regardless of how artfully illustrated.

ghostgeek: I wish to raise the question of evil once more, it being a topic in the news right now, not that there's ever been a time it hasn't. It seems a lot of people have trouble explaining how evil can exist in the world if, as is assumed, God is good and just. If you've ever had a peek at the philosophy of religion you'll probably know what I mean here. Well, could it be that this so called "problem" is really nothing more than an erroneous conclusion being drawn from the evidence of the Bible. It seems to be the general belief that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are monotheistic religions, but even a cursory glance at the relevant texts reveals a world teeming with spiritual beings. Further, it is clear that these beings are possessed of a great measure of autonomy. Finally, it is obvious that many of these spiritual entities are seen as being in opposition to God. Now what is being delineated, it seems to me, is a war in Heaven with the Earth caught in the cross-fire. Evil is thus the collateral damage brought about by this conflict, the unavoidable outcome of cosmic warfare.

CoIin: @ ghost

Yes, we're often told by our religious friends that "God is good".

Although, any of the rest of us who reads through the butchery of the Old Testament, is led to the inevitable conclusion that God is anything but good; God is about as far from good as it's possible to be.

What's happening here then? How can different people have such different views on God's "goodness"?

What non-religious people like you and I do, I think, is examine God's actions and then hold them up to commonly recognized independent standards or norms of moral goodness - and God with his incessant slaughter naturally fails miserably. He's a moral abomination of the highest order.

For our religious friends, on the other hand, God IS THE VERY STANDARD OF GOODNESS ITSELF. God is good BY DEFINITION. The religious person does not examine God's behavior and then judge it according to independent standards as we do. God cannot NOT be good. There is nothing he could do - no matter how appalling to the rest of us - that would not be "good" to the believer.

So two points in conclusion:-

1. This is a very dangerous state of affairs.

2. If God is good by definition then our religious friends PRAISING God's goodness is an exercise in absurdity. I don't think they realize it, but they are saying nothing significant. It's like choosing a particular rod to be the standard meter stick (therefore it can never FAIL to be one meter long) and then TAKING PRIDE IN IT being one meter long!

chay chayi: False, you have no knowledge of what kind of people were "butchered", they were people that burned their children for idols, sexual sin with mothers, sisters and daughters etc. etc. so you are talking nonsense after nosense

CoIin: Chayiii

Is it possible for God ever to do anything that is not good?

chay chayi: No, because he's the root of good, and he only wants good

CoIin: Ok, so would you say that God is good BY DEFINITION?

chay chayi: The base you are trying to build is not true, God is good, good means what's truly good, not what you are mistaking as good

CoIin: Ok, thanks.

Can you please give us some criteria for determining the goodness of actions, so that we may examine scripture and judge whether God satisfies these criteria.

How about killing people? Is that good or bad?

chay chayi: Killing innocent people is murder and evil
God kills only evil

CoIin: Hmm, ok. Let me try another approach : a counterfactual thought experiment.

Chayiii, please imagine the following scenario (and I emphasize this is PURELY HYPOTHETICAL. I have no reason to suspect anything like this could or would ever happen. The question is "IF" it happened... )

"God comes down to Earth in human form. He proceeds to kill, rape, and torture on a grand scale. He freely admits that his victims are innocent. They are all good people."

What do you say of God's actions in this hypothetical scenario : good or bad?

chay chayi: bad

CoIin: Thanks again for a very clear answer.

So, in your case, I was wrong in my supposition that you treat God as being good by definition.

It would be more correct to represent your position as "God can do evil if he so desires, but he never does."

Is this correct?

chay chayi: No, God cannot do evil, because he's the root of good

CoIin: Well, now, you seem to be contradicting yourself.

In our hypothetical example above you returned the answer "bad". That is to say, it may be the case that God as a matter of fact HAS NOT committed an evil act, but nevertheless he is CAPABLE of committing an evil act. He CAN do evil.

But directly above this post, you switch to "God cannot do evil".

Please explain.