Who Believes in the Devil? (Page 23)

duncan124:
But yet again something comes out of the ground and takes away many people in what I guess to be a cycle of growth and destruction.

duncan124:
That was in reply to Ghosts Aboriginal video.

Zanjan: @Ghost > "We've all met the devil because he's cheap and easy, and ever anxious to meet you." This to me suggests that you see the Devil very much as a "guy". So is the chap with horns a real person or not?”

No, I’m still using personification – I like to keep literary form. I’m not sure who invented the horns, it would seem to me he needs only one to stick you. The goat’s feet……..well, that’s a puzzle. Goats are sure-footed, bouncy creatures who eat everything in sight, including glue and string. Perhaps you can elucidate? If the devil is a guy, who has captured him live on camera?

My own experience was closer to a vile sensation in the pit of the stomach which wells up and expands the chest. Unless it’s funny; in which case, the eyes squint, turning to merry slits which pull a crooked snear.

Yes, as I told you, it’s easy to tell the devil to go away. Some people don’t want to though. Seems to me, the devil is terrified when somebody says to it “Worship the Lord your God and serve only Him”. It’s like when bible thumpers come to your front door to convert you, eh.

As in the case of the devil’s child I told you about – as long as one keeps their silence, she grows bolder and more arrogant, thinking she’s untouchable. Being careless, she makes more and more mistakes, which pile up and make it easier to throw the Book at her, in more ways than one.

By the way, I said one can’t make a statue that is even similar to God, since God isn’t a physical being.

Zanjan: "Would you treat an aboriginal creation story from Australia as embodying inerrant truth?

How about *intrinsic* truth? The theme is the same - spiritual creation, told in terms children can understand, just like Genesis. The given people were familiar with a certain environment, and the natures of animals were easily recognized as spiritual traits shared with humans.

Within Genesis is the description of grand spiritual cycles that actually exist.You can find these in all cultures throughout recorded history. There are predictions in each story, and these are the same in all cultures.

duncan124:
The characterisation of Satan is quite scientific about what he would look like given his life style.

The Bible exhorts followers not to have any idols so there are few images of God but the social need for a 'facebook' has been filled by the crucifixion images and carvings.

Zanjan: When I was young, it was forbidden to represent Jesus in movies by anything other than an extended hand or a halo of light. That seemed odd to me, given the many stained glass windows in churches portraying Jesus, and paintings of His visage on Christian walls.

I noticed a trend in that visage - from the gentle face, holding a heart in hand and book in the other, to the suffering, blood dripping face of Christ. I found that quite disconcerting.

I don't care for this modern trend of over-focusing on the death of Jesus while everybody celebrates the life of anyone else whose passed away, regardless of the cause. Such gloominess pounded into the heads of people so repetitively is bound to make them all depressed. If not for Christmas, it's mostly a perpetual funeral.

Could it be that Satan has been flirting with the Lord's people?

The devil is characterized as having blood red skin - why? I mean, the colour red to N.American Indians is the colour of the divine spirit. Europeans used to call Indians the Red Man because they painted themselves with red ochre. But colours change, I guess.

ghostgeek: I've seen it said That the Devil's red skin started out as the red clothing worn by Mephistopheles in the guise of a cavalier in Goethe's Faust. Truth is, I always thought the old reprobate was a very fetching black. Shows how wrong one can be. Anyway, the horns and cloven hooves most likely came from the Greek god Pan. Originally, it seems, Satan's deformed feet were more varied, duck feet, cock's claws, and horse's hooves being some options. He may also have bat's wings, to show he's a fallen angel.

Zanjan: Bat's wings - now that's absurd. Everybody knows the devil can't fly but bats can. Apparently, that idea didn't catch on.

How times have changed. Where do zombies fit in? Are they what's left after the devil's dinner?

ghostgeek: I dare say you're right about the wings Zanjan. Makes Satan sound like Dracula. Now, about God not being a physical entity? As far as I can see, the only information we have pertaining to God is that contained in various religious texts, like Genesis. Genesis most definitely does present God as being physical, a chap who can walk in the garden in the cool of the evening for example. Seems you should be able to make a statue of Him after all.

Zanjan: God walks with man through man's higher spirit. The garden is the setting for spiritual delights, to inhale the perfume of wisdom's flowers and taste the beautiful fruits that are produced from the religions, represented as "trees". Of course, some of those trees produce a few nuts that are hard to crack but hey, there's a place for all kinds in paradise.

ghostgeek: Did the ancient cultures of the world need a Devil? The answer would seem to be no. Their gods were complex, exhibiting both good and bad characteristics in a single being. It was only with the coming of God, with monotheism, that there was a need for a Devil. If you conceive of a being that is all good, you then have the problem of explaining why so much bitterness, sorrow, anger, suffering, and downright manevolence, exists in the world. To exonerate God from being the originator of evil a scapegoat needed to be found. Cue the Devil.

chronology: Ghost. One of the ironies today is that most people believe in the Devil thanks to Hollywood rather that any religious teaching. Again ironically, Ira Levine who started all the 'Devil is real' genra in movies with his 'Rosemary's Baby' book never believed in the Devil. One of the biggest regrets in his life was that he broke the ground for the Omen and Excorcist movies. He thought the entire idea of a 'devil' was pure BS.

ghostgeek: As it happens I'm a bit of a fan of the Supernatural TV series, but I sure don't believe in demons and the Devil. I also used to watch the Roswell TV series, but again, doing so has never made me think that aliens are living amongst us. Hollywood and its clones may have much to answer for, but turning the world into devil worshippers is surely beyond its abilities.

Still, if one particular website is to be believed [ http://usminc.org/crime7.html ], there seems to be quite a few Satanists and their ilk trying to put theory into practice.

ghostgeek: You just can't beat American schlock:

chronology: Linda Blair the little girl from St Louis sent half the world into convulsions of terror with her exorcist role.

'If it led to the religious and moral improvement of the public the end would have been justified by the means' Linda may quipe today.

People were being carried from movie theaters on stretchers during the screening of that movie. Others were running crazy through the streets after the show.

ghostgeek: It never had that effect on me. I must be strange.

Zanjan: They said it was a true story but I thought the storyline was the conception of some parent after a long day. The make-up was obviously a fanciful touch; when it's really hard to express in words what one feels, colour does the trick.

chronology: The man who wrote the book the exorcist movie was based on was William Peter Blatty. Mr Blatty had worked for the U.S. Navy Psychological Warfare Unit so he knew a thing or two about frightening people.

No he did not write about a true incident, Bill Blatty said he got the idea for the story from a supposed 'possession story of a young boy.

The Movie 'Rosemary's Baby' which had massive success inspired most of the so called 'realistic' devil story's like the exorcist.

The world wide mass hysteria reaction to the movie happened literally world wide, not just in the U.S. people were collapsing in movie theater's running out of the show and running off into the streets, sleeping with statues of mary and jesus to ward off the devil for months after seeing the film. You have to hand it to those Navy Psy warfare boys, they sure know how to do a great job. Or as they probably said themselves when seeing all the news stories flooding in from around the world about the film 'still got the touch' .

Zanjan: Those stories never frightened me - hard to believe there was so much fuss over them. I guess I have a hard time suspending belief. Now Alien, that was scary. Also, a bad LSD trip.

I think the current generation is too de-sensitized by gratuitous and gory film FX to have anything frighten them unless its the startle of an unexpected noisy leap out of calm.

chronology: LSD? You Zan? I find that difficult to imagine. I just can't see you throwing off all restraints and plunging into a sea of Liberty. Would I be wrong in presuming you instructed God on how He should regard your sensuous pleasure before the waves of extercy overwhelmed you?

ghostgeek: The fear of the Devil seems to bear close parallels to 1930s Russia. Mistakes and failings that afflicted the Soviet economy were portrayed as the work of saboteurs, counter-revolutionaries and outside agents, all bent on destroying the nascent state. Shadowy forces working in secret to undermine Socialism. Doesn't this sound familiar? Isn't the Devil supposed to be scheming against God and His works; tempting humanity to stray?

It would seem that scapegoats are needed in every age.

chronology: True enough, guess who is the scapegoat for this age? right first time 'Artificial Intelligence' . AI is now being suspected as planning to take over the world, and robots are getting set to take everyones jobs, sound familiar? every generation has it's scapegoat and AI is this ones.

AI is also seen as having supernatural powers, able to read minds and watch people all the time and listen to every word spoken or transmitted on the web.

Personally I see AI as the most significant development since computers.

ghostgeek:

ghostgeek: Could be we are seeing the next stage in evolution.

chronology: You may be right. Given a choice of a beautiful robot and a woman, what man in his right mind would want a woman? What can a woman do a robot could not do better? and women sure have a sell by date whereas a robot stays beautiful and intelligent for ever.