Who Believes in the Devil? (Page 12)

chronology
chronology: ghostgeek. You are correct about Pilate's name spelling. The incident with the Samaritans was just one of many provocative incidents Pilate presided over in Judea. He ordered the Roman Soldiers in his Guard to march around streets in Jerusalem, this infuriated Jewish religious folks who rioted, saying Pilate's men were too close to the Temple. An agreement they claimed Roman soldiers were not allowed close to the Temple.
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orkanen
orkanen: chronology wrote: As for the 'popularity of the myth' actually the people of Rome could make no sense of the early accounts of the life of Jesus; 'an Law abiding man arrested for no reason', 'found not guilty of any crime by the Prefect of the Province of Judea' but sentenced to death anyway.

Do you have any reference to this?

I dismiss both Tacitus and Josephus, as neither were contemporaries, but instead relied on hearsay. During my research into the matter, I found two contemporary historians, one living and working in Jerusalem. Neither mentioned Jesus, nor his performed miracles. As an example, if the Sermon on the Mount was such a spectacular event, how come 5.000 people suffered from collective amnesia?
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chronology
chronology: There was one account I read of Domitian 'being said to have found the account of the execution and life of Jesus nonsensical, he dispatched a fact finding committee to Judea to clarify the facts'. the writer who noted this did not sign his name or his source for Domitian's actions.

orkenen, I think you will concede that practically all of history is unprovable. Can you prove Cleopatra and Julius Caesar were in bed together? that she snook into his bedroom in a rolled up carpet? The incident was well known at the time of Julius Caesar, but how many sources can you present to establish it as a 'fact'? Or that Alexander The Great became a alcoholic while in Babylon? we have stories of Alexander killing a friend in a drunken rage, but that is not proof of alcoholism. I cannot prove to you the great Mississippi river flowed backwards in 1812, one riverboat man said his boat was travelling as fast as a racing horse galloping full speed as it was carried the wrong way down river.

We have to use our own judgement to decide if something is true, I believe the Gospel accounts of Jesus. I cannot prove that to you, or that there were 'holes' in the Mississippi river in 1812, or that Cleopatra spent the night ravishing the Mighty Caesar.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Well, for men, sex is the crucible of all things so I'm more likely to believe those stories. I'm not likely to believe that women were all pure and virginal because those men had to have sex with somebody.

Alexander was accused of being gay but he actually swung both ways. Yes, rage can make one act like a violent drunk, especially when its a jealous rage, but a real drunk can barely stand up, let alone kill someone. When I was young, I worked in a bar part time; my experience is that drunks threatening to accost someone usually cant even find their beer glass.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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orkanen
orkanen: If Jesus' actions were mentioned by contemporary sources, I'd without question accept his existence. As it is, none have so far been discovered. Both Cleopatra and Caesar had contemporary mentions, as did Alexander the Great and the backwards flow of the Mississippi river in 1812.

After, and only after the existence of Jesus has been established, can we begin to discuss his divinity.

One doesn't "become" an alcoholic. It's genetic.
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-11-gene-network-alcohol.html
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chronology
chronology: orkanen, well can go to the stretches of the Mississippi where the river flowed backwards, care to 'prove' how the documents or accounts are genuine? American Library staff are friendly helpful people, but they are unlikely to have the actual records of the 1812 event, in fact I am sure there are no Official records at all. The riverboat men who experienced the 'Old Mississip' raging backwards never wrote down any account, they told others, we only 'know' it happened because Newspapers of the time carried the story, and they were all based on second hand or even third hand reports. And I seriously doubt there are any actual newspapers that were printed at the time.

Can you give me the sources for your account of Alexander when he was in Iraq? I reference the four Gospel accounts of Jesus which you reject, I still insist you have no solid evidence to reject them.
The noteworthy people mentioned in the Gospels are verifiable, places in Judea are verifiable, I will pre-empt you here by agreeing there is no support for the 'massacre of the innocents' by Herod. But given the Roman joke about one of the Herods 'it is safer to be his pig than his son', it shows an disposition.

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Zanjan
Zanjan: Why go back to ancient mention when speaking of the Devil? When did it die?
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orkanen
orkanen: When did contemporary newspaper articles about the 1812 event, however second hand or third hand, cease to be contemporary? Such an event may be improbable, but not impossible. As such, I can imagine, from natural causes, what happened. As for Alexander's travels, his trips around the Middle-East are also plausible, but I'd leave that to those who study such things.

Picking another historical figure, Muhammad, the prophet of the Muslims. He claimed to have visited the ends of the earth, and described them how he imagined them. Although presenting himself as a first hand witness, the way he did so, tells me he never went there, and maintained to his death, a belief of a flat earth.

The Gospels mention many places. Some correctly placed, some out of place. Doctor Who stories mention many known places and even more famous people, but I don't believe for one second that Doctor Who is a Timelord from Gallifrey, with a particular liking for our Earth. Nor do I spend sleepless nights fearing the return of the Daleks. Forgive me for my crude comparison. The four present Gospels, disregarding all the other ones, most of them missing, display an ever increasing narrative, the next, loosely copied from the previous ones, yet not a single event ever reached contemporary historians. I find too many details out of place for the story to be plausible.
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dadman1240
dadman1240: "the next, loosely copied from the previous ones" ???? .... what a buntcha BS ..... you need a closer look > http://dadmansabode.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=38#p38 <
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orkanen
orkanen: Why should I care to look at your forum, dadman? If I feel the need to reference something, I'd reference it to studies, not my own personal opinions, in a competing website.
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dadman1240
dadman1240: no skin off my nose
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orkanen
orkanen: Wouldn't that depend on the approval or disapproval of this forum's moderators?
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dadman1240
dadman1240: just trying to keep you from making ignorant statements like "one Gospel copied from the previous ones"
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orkanen
orkanen: You go on believing that.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: I have read that there is a fairly general consensus that Mark's Gospel formed the foundation upon which both the Gospels' of Matthew and Luke were composed. John's Gospel, in contrast, followed a different tradition.
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dadman1240
dadman1240: "I have read that there is a fairly general consensus" ..... oh the pools of ignorance continue
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: So tell us, wise Lord, what do you know?
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dadman1240
dadman1240: why would I waste time with scoffers and mockers ....... you wanna know what I know ??? .... go abide in my abode .... > http://dadmansabode.com/ < this is why it's there
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Been there, done that. As far as I'm concerned the Devil is in the detail Dadman. Like how you can have two different birth stories for Jesus, one of which is based on a possibly poor translation of Isaiah 7:14 into Greek. One doubts because things don't add up. Simple as that.
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calybonos
calybonos: For the details in the devil's onion ring and other enlightening orifices, visit the Oracle of the Order of the Devine Asinine.

http://a pig's gospel.com/forum/viewtopic.poop?4u2pn2=69#86 ^

Where our moto is - "We shed light where the sun don't shine."
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: A bum steer if ever I saw one.
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dadman1240
dadman1240: What proof and evidence can you provide that PROVES that atheism is accurate and correct ? ... You see I left atheism because the lack of proof and evidence that it is accurate and correct ... The proof and evidence is for Jesus Christ .... http://www.conservapedia.com/Christian_apologetics
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orkanen
orkanen: How does one prove an absence of something, dadman? Has it ever occurred to to you that atheism is nothing but the lack of belief in any given deity, or are you one of those insisting on asserting "Atheism" as a religion, just to have something to attack? For example, I assume you don't believe in the Norse god Thor, thus you're an atheist in regards to Thor.
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chronology
chronology: orkenen. You mention repeatedly 'contemporary historians'. Tacitus and Josephus mention Jesus, fair enough they lived a few decades later. Just 'which' 'contemporary historians' would satisfy your need for proof of Christ's existence. For example, when Jesus was Crucified, the people of Rome noticed the day became dark at the time the Gospels record, however they could not have connected this with Jesus, as at the time they had never heard of Him.

Edit. orkenen The Historian among others who mentions the darkness at noon in Rome was Thallus. The darkness during the hours of Christ's execution was widely commented on in the Classical world. Greeks and Romans could only speculate there had been some unknown 'eclipse' but the Roman people found the event genuinely bewildering as you would expect. Again, no one linked this to the death of Jesus because Pilate was still administering the death sentence as it happened.
(Edited by chronology)
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: How did atheism pop into the conversation Dadman? You theists all seem to live in a black and white world. Either God yes or God no but never God maybe. I notice by the way that that Conservapedia site you're directing people to doesn't seem to show much interest in Jesus' birth. Perhaps I'm wrong on that, so if so how about pointing me in the right direction.

What I find very strange about the story of the virgin birth is that only two Gospels mention it. To my way of thinking, having God as Jesus' progenitor should be worth mentioning in all four Gospels as a sign of divinity, but only two bothered. Add that to the fact that the two accounts recorded disagree with each other, as do the two genealogies, and it's easy to conclude that the virgin birth is pure fiction. More believable are the Jewish claims that Jesus was fathered by a Roman soldier. So, was the "virgin birth" a desperate attempt to explain away something embarrassing about Jesus' parentage? Come on Dadman, give it your best shot.
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