The dominoes keep falling around the faith-based opposition surrounding same-sex marriage (Page 2)

LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: Didn't you notice the quotation marks? Let review Numbers 31:14-18

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14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

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The quotation marks didn't mean it only came from the bible(although it, like, did)- the quotations mean the bible is attributing that to Moses. You can talk all you want about how Moses said this or that, but when the bible CLEARLY has a quote from Moses himself, it's pretty obvious you're just ignoring scripture that you don't like.

And if you can do that, why can't homosexuals?

>>>But young girls are resilient and able to learn.

After you raped the into submission, of course.

But why only young women? young men are not resilient and capable of learning??

>>>They took the enemy girls as wives, not one-night stands;

Sounds like sex slaves to me. Is this another ideal you think our society should be modeled after? Sex slavery?

>>>What's the difference between that and arranged marriage?

Besides the fact that the girl's mother, father, and brothers were all murdered, their home destroyed, and she was kidnapped and treated as a spoil of war?

I get that you're trying to justify the bible- I get that- saying that that kind of shit was okay in their day? maybe- but to say that we should follow God's Law, which includes such actions as moral, fair, and just? It just doesn't make any sense.

Our government treats women better than what appears in any biblical text- can we at least agree to that? That there are so instances where "God's Law" is simply oppressive and wrong?

>>>Do you think these men were so unlovable the girls wouldn't take to liking them? I bet you think the men would beat their wives too.

And I'm sure that's true of modern day sex slaves- perhaps they grow to like their masters- perhaps their masters treat them fairly- but that doesn't make the slavery any better. And those women were *slaves*

To say we should model our society over that is just backwards.

>>>There was no Law of God that says "take slaves"; there was guidance as to what to do with slaves.

Exactly- God does not denounce the use of slaves. In a country that follows "God's Law"- slavery would exist, because God didn't say "Slavery is Good" or "Slavery is Bad", but rather, explains what makes a good slave.

>>>I wonder at the person who takes offense at history and imagines a simple, child-like people can grow up overnight and act like responsible adults, even without any accessories or world power.

Again, I get it- that was then, this is now. But if you want us to put the rules found in the bible above the rules given to us by our police officers and judges- guess what- slavery wouldn't be abolished because God refused to acknowledge it should be abolished.

>>>It's written in the Baha'i scriptures

Care to offer me a quote?

Interestingly enough, other things Baha'i prohibited, along with slavery?

Begging, Kissing someones hand, confessing your sins, defamation(wait....aren't you defaming homosexuals and politicians in this very thread?), shaving your head, and allowing a man's hair to grow past his ear.

Wow- with all your talk of majority rule, it sure doesn't sound like the majority of people fit into the Baha'i belief structure...

Although I found somthing that is SOOOOOO funny- one of the laws of Baha'i?

"Being obedient to the government of one's country. Civil law takes priority over Bahá'í religious law."

HAAHAHAHAHA.....so there you have it Zanjan....your own opinion is a complete contradiction of your religious scripture- the Baha'i believe the government's laws are more important than religious laws- and you believe the opposite.

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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: >>>YOU aren't a woman. YOU have no idea what it's like to manage a period without access to feminine products, not even safety pins.

And you are not a homosexual. You do not know what it is like to be one.

If you think you can ignore religious scripture that's applied against you because it is unpleasant, then homosexuals should be able to do the same...
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: The bible screamers do not care what is like to be gay, just as they do not care what it is like when a woman unintentionally gets pregnant and has no way to take care of the child or no desire to have a child. All they hear as that birdie screeching inside their head about the declarations of the god they have conjured up.
I do not now, nor have I ever had a problem with people wanting to belong to a religion. But when it conflicts with our laws and the equitable treatment of law abiding adults, there is a serious issue.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Lipton, I've never suggested anyone should return to to living like the ancients did, with or without God.

Revelation is progressive - if God had wanted people to stay the same, He wouldn't keep sending Prophets. If He had not wanted people to learn new things, He wouldn't have sent new Revelations.

"Care to offer me a quote?"

No, I don't quote our scriptures on this board - go to the Baha'i website and look it up - it seems you know some Baha'i prohibitions, how would you miss that one?

There's a whole list of things mankind was instructed to achieve in modern times - in the mid- 19th century, these were quite controversial to most people. However, almost everything on that list has been accomplished by now and is nearly universal. The rest is fine-tuning.

I don't need to defame politicians - they build their own reputation.Of course, if you trust lawyers, that's your business.

As for homosexuals, how is it you missed Baha'i teachings on that as well? We consider them human beings, the same as all others. Our door isn't closed to them by any means, neither our hearts. If anyone wanted to join our religion, they'd be advised to obey all its ordinances; undoubtedly, every newbie will find at least one law they don't like but they still need to obey it.

My religion doesn't have majority "rule". God rules. We aim for a consensus, always attempting unanimity. Should there be a few stubborn souls, then the decision must go to vote. If voting results are marginal, we think of that as a failure and go back to the drawing board, then pray again. Usually, a better proposal is up for consideration. Anything less than an overwhelming majority vote is unacceptable.

"it sure doesn't sound like the majority of people fit into the Baha'i belief structure..."

For a change, you're right - they don't, not yet, but they will. I'm totally fine with that since I'm enjoying a young religion that's still fresh and pure. Once they all get on the bandwagon, the fun is over.

"Civil law takes priority over Bahá'í religious law."

No, it doesn't. What makes you think we can't walk and chew gum at the same time? We obey both. I understand if that's a concept you're incapable of grasping.

Your other post, Lipton, is irrelevant - menstrual cycles have nothing to do with being homosexual.

(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Dave: " they do not care what it is like when a woman unintentionally gets pregnant and has no way to take care of the child or no desire to have a child."



99% of all fostering is done by religious people - they take in those kids nobody wants. Atheists don't take care of their own.

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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Your 99 percent is very kind. Now take it a step further and concede that a woman can have a right to end a pregnancy, however regrettable that may be. Fostering is about caring about the child after it is born. It has nothing to do with caring about whether the mother wants to have the child.
As always, your BS flag is burned.
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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: >>>No, it doesn't.

Can you find anything to substantiate this claim? Because all my research shows that Civil law takes precedence to religious law in the Baha'i religion.....

Conversely, all your posts up until this point has been about how Religious laws should matter more than government laws- now you want to say they're equal?

If so, you should respect the right to Gay marriage- it's been a right in Canada for over half a decade- follow your religion, Zanjan- respect the law.
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near50ohoh
near50ohoh: If nothing else, hate the sin not the sinner. Having these rights they are entitled to as human beings, reduces the incidents where they will be targeted by people who wish them harm. It will be less likely they will be denied housing, education and health care. Gay youth won't be as prevalent among the homeless in the wealthiest countries in the world. Gay youth will be more likely to feel less alienated and may stop taking their own lives. You don't have to agree with them, just protect their lives and safety. They are God's children too.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Dave:" that a woman can have a right to end a pregnancy,"

No, she has no such right in reality - that's a fantasy made up by wicked people, supported by corrupt government. We've been over these issues before.

This child is NOT her body - it's a separate entity, a life belonging to another human and she has no right to murder it. Abortion isn't a method of birth control. There's always adoption - 9 months carrying a baby is a small inconvenience for a terrible mistake. Sex doesn't come risk or responsibility free.

On the other hand, if said woman has a serious medical condition when the pregnancy would threaten both their lives, and only one life can be saved, then it's up to a consensus of medical doctors to recommend whether or not there should be an abortion. The mother can still choose whether or not to follow the doctor's recommendation.

Lipton, I know my religion better than you do. You're not an authority on it and, obviously, you don't accept any authority on it either.

Any right the civilian government has given to its citizens isn't proof it's the right thing to do. There's been enough evil dictators in history as testimony of that. The Canadian law doesn't force me to enter into a gay marriage, and the American right to bear arms doesn't stop abusive and murderous use of them.

@Near........ human rights, or lack thereof, has nothing to do with preventing hatred or bullying of anyone. Governments cant stop that, they never have. Bringing up a child properly with spiritual virtues can. Which is the easier and more responsible of the two?

God believers don't advocate hating anything or anyone - the love of God leaves no room for such thoughts.

As for human rights - one of them is the right to shelter. Look how many homeless people there are in North American slums. Please give them a home - they have a right to it even if they refuse to pay rent.

(Edited by Zanjan)
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Zanjan, there was a post you made some time back - and I'll never forget this - in which you said gays, and I quote, "make me sick." You might not remember saying it. But you did. It's somewhere here in the Wireclub archives. And just now, you go judging those who would allow abortion as wicked. Wicked, you say. Wicked. Then, in the next breath, you claim that god believers don't hate anything or anyone.
Your sanctimony and double-talk is so transparent, even a blind man could see a million miles through it.
(Edited by davesdatahut)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: You seem to have a very poor yet selective memory. I said a certain thing made me sick, not gays. You've conveniently forgotten what that "something" was.

Lots of things make me sick, even some individual people have - literally. That doesn't mean I've ever treated them with disrespect or injustice.

Yes, I judge all murderers. So what? I can do that.........I have good judgment. I doubt they care that I judge them either.

"you claim that god believers don't hate anything or anyone."

This is true. One can make good judgements without hatred. Since you're a non-believer, you wouldn't know about that. Many religious people aren't real God-believers - they act like the non-believers. I'm quite capable of perceiving their actions accurately.

"...Your sanctimony and double-talk ..."

Now you're sounding quite snotty, Dave. Do you always hurl nasty words at people who are capable of doing things you can't? Perhaps your inability to understand is just a one-timer?

(Edited by Zanjan)
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near50ohoh
near50ohoh: You know my new year's resolution should be not to discuss abortion or gay rights with Zanjan. All I succeed in is getting myself mad. yup . Dave you started this discussion, again. Knowing she would come hunting. It's on you pal.
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: To get mad, near, is to elevate the source of your anger to a level that merits the emotion.
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near50ohoh
near50ohoh: You may be right but I still feel it happening. Have fun!! I'd wish you luck but nothing is likely to change
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Speaking reason to a fanatic, I do admit, is like trying to cut glass with a crayon.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Then maybe you should go back to the drawing board, eh.

Near, glad I could help you out with your anger
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near50ohoh
near50ohoh: NO I really don't need to feel angry. I really don't. And the relaese for a discussion thread where absolutely nothing happens but two sides nattering at each other is more frustrating than helpful.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Well, that's always the way it is with controversial issues - almost always, they only have two sides, not 3 or more.

Actually, I think such topics should be reserved for those who have a backbone of steel - the rest just end up embarrassing themselves. Definitely, one should know their own limits.

That made me think of how many people really don't know themselves.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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near50ohoh
near50ohoh: It's not my resolve that is weak or my beliefs, but my intestines really are rebelling at all the crap I am swallowing that isn't necessary or part of my diet
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orkanen
orkanen: I find it exceedingly humorous when abortion is brought up by the religious. Last time i checked a religious site concerning the matter, I found that at least 60% of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortions. In other words, whatever god must certainly approve of abortions, despite the claims of certain groups of religionists.

Demanding that everyone make sure they have contraceptions if they don't want babies is equally futile to demanding every driver to use turn signals correctly, or at all. Not everyone cares. They simply can't, because it is not included within their abilities or interests. Or closer to home, imagine Zanjan being honest about her claims for a change, especially when they are proven false.
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Near, keep in mind that this kind of crap comes from the mouths and minds of the fanatical and the intolerant, You don't have to swallow it. Just counter it. It is important to combat it. Over time, it really does fall away. It just takes time.
It is worth, again, to post this movie clip in here...

(Edited by davesdatahut)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Ork, there's no such thing as a spontaneous abortion. Miscarriage happens naturally.

Although, some women have tried to end a pregnancy by attempting to naturally stack the cards, it's usually unsuccessful, and sometimes may cause a birth defect to the baby.

God knows what people have in their minds and hearts and *God* is who they have to answer to - NOT you or me.

There are so many ways one can practice family planning - even the developmentally delayed can do it successfully. Everyone has the ability to abstain. If all else fails, the religious person will be bringing up that baby responsibly. Don't bother citing the number of religious fakers; that figure is infinitesimal, compared to the numbers amongst non -believers.

However, Ork, I'll give you credit for presenting a third side to an issue. This is only possible because it applies to a behaviour, not a concept.

@Dave - teapot calling the kettle black.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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near50ohoh
near50ohoh: Orkanen is just giving you the medical term Zanjan. It is called a spontaneous abortion.

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orkanen
orkanen: Well, that's the ting. Not everyone practices family planning. Not everyone is capable of doing so. Non the less, these people are usually condemned by self righteous religious bigots, the same bigots who tries reducing sexual education to limited or non existent, ensuring unplanned pregnancies and needed abortions.
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near50ohoh
near50ohoh: I would have left, but realized that Zanjan would be the only believer left on this thread then :

I can't tolerate the thought that that is the only belief perspective here on this issue.

OK gay marriage is gaining ground legally and in human rights discussions. Whether you agree or not, the tide is shifting. There are very few temples that stand in the dark ages on this issue.

Why is this? Because science has shown us that gender identity, sexual orientation and sexual attraction are biological. Yes, social can tweak them but they are in the DNA. Hard wired. So how do you change that? You can't. Therefore, if an error was made, it was made by God.

As for abortion? As long as a woman or girl can be raped by a man, and get away with it or she is blamed for his actions anywhere in the world, I side on the abortion being legal side.
For the situations where mom is incapable medically of carrying the child, or the child has a very dismal future, I can't see how it would be ok to make the family go through the pregnancy. I think that would be unnecessary cruelty.

It's not ever my call to make how someone else lives their life. It's between them and their God. And as long as they are bound and determined to use that right, I am for legislation being there to see they get the safe procedure they need. Even if that means chicky who never met a guy or unsheathed penis she didn't like has her 7th procedure (wince, cringe OMG!!) then so be it.
(Edited by near50ohoh)
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