Why Bother Trying to 'Convert' When It Is Personal? (Page 10) CoIin: @ - "Many people" did not have devout followers. Well, this is simply untrue, I'm afraid. Miracle workers with bands of devout followers were not at all rare in the ancient world. They're not at all rare in the modern world either. Take this description, for example:- "Even before he was born, it was known that he would be someone special. A supernatural being informed mother the child she was to conceive would not be a mere mortal but would be divine. He was born miraculously, and he became an unusually precocious young man. As an adult he left home and went on an itinerant preaching ministry, urging his listeners to live, not for the material things of this world, but for what is spiritual. He gathered a number of disciples around him, who became convinced that his teachings were divinely inspired, in no small part because he himself was divine. He proved it to them by doing many miracles, healing the sick, casting out demons, and raising the dead. But at the end of his life he roused opposition, and his enemies delivered him over to the Roman authorities for judgment. Still, after he left this world, he returned to meet his followers in order to convince them that he was not really dead but lived on in the heavenly realm. Later some of his followers wrote books about him." Guess who? Ans : Apollonius of Tyana en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyana CoIin: Re - miraculous healings Even if I accept all your accounts as true (which I obviously can't as I have no knowledge of them), you still haven't solved the problem. In order to prove your God theory, you'd have to demonstrate that your theory IS THE ONLY POSSIBLE THEORY THAT CAN ACCOUNT FOR THESE EVENTS. Can you do this? The answer, I suggest, is clearly not. And therefore to assign absolute belief - FAITH - to a theory that is nowhere near proven is not rationally justifiable. CoIin: @ - "You keep saying its "my theory" but i have been telling you facts" The events you've been telling me about (healings, etc), whether true or not, constitute your evidence -- your facts. Your EXPLANATION for these events, i.e. the workings of God, the Holy Spirit et al, is your theory. If these entities (God, Holy Spirit) are NOT theoretical, as you seem to be implying, bring 'em out and let's all have a look. (Edited by CoIin)  bainyu: I know there were magicians and it says this man was wealthy. For him to gain followers is nothing. He is privileged and wealth gets you places and allows you to do things It also says he was in the occult... there is magic and sorcery done that I do believe existed and still exists. Its demonic. According to what ive read this is after Jesus and there were no eyewitnesses to this. Philostratus is the only source for the accounts of Apollonius and the accounts of Apollonius were written well after he is supposed to have lived by a man named Philostratus (A.D. 170-245)  bainyu: Yes I made a claim that the Bible makes. The Bible says many things about Jesus healing and his disciples healing His resurrection. The Bible makes some bold claims about believers and what they are able to do. The claim is supported by the healings. The ability to heal someone by and through the name of a man who claimed to be the Son of God. If what the Bible says is coming to pass then does that mean there is. Possibility it is true? CoIin: @ - "I know there were magicians and it says this man was wealthy. For him to gain followers is nothing. He is privileged and wealth gets you places and allows you to do things It also says he was in the occult... there is magic and sorcery done that I do believe existed and still exists. Its demonic. According to what ive read this is after Jesus and there were no eyewitnesses to this." He had money and he didn't live at exactly the same time as Jesus so he doesn't count? Oh dear  I had been hoping for a reasoned discussion between sensible people. I see it's not going to be. Fare thee well, my bonnie lass  (Edited by CoIin)  (Post deleted by staff )  (Post deleted by orkanen ) bainyu: Lol I never saw your comment.. Is that your credibility at the bottom? Yes English teachers think they know everything CoIin: Bainyu I have not spoken ill of you. I have not insulted you. Without exception I have responded to your posts respectfully using only reason as a critique. Never once have I personally attacked you. Is it too much to ask that you might extend me the same courtesy? (Post deleted by staff ) (Post deleted by staff ) (Post deleted by staff )  Zanjan: Bainyu “Zanjan you know the Bible shows a man who was possessed who had superhuman strength..” Are you referring to Samson? What makes you think he was possessed? I doubt very much his superhuman strength was physical – he tore down the “pillars” of the pagan temple and for that, one needs supernatural strength. Classic pattern of behavior. If you destroy a building, people can just rebuild it from the rubble. That’s not what happened. There was no re-building. The Pillars were not made of stone – they were the rules and laws, the way of governance executed by men who wielded authority through the influence of religion; their corrupt ideologies had entrapped the people. Samson’s enemies hoped to destroy his vision because he was exposing their hypocrisy. We see in the end, his spiritual power wasn’t actually in his ‘long hair’(not cutting it, which symbolized a vow of service) but lay, first and foremost, in his love for God and selfless dedication to justice. Even after a short lapse of focus and with short hair, He could call on God for the same strength and receive it. I have to agree with Colin the “floor” plan doesn’t make much sense – you can’t box in spirit. Seems to me it’s the physical design of the ancient Jewish Tabernacle which, at the very best, is similar to a kingly procession, like the halls inside a pyramid that guides to the next life. In my religion, there’s a “progression” through valleys of states of being while learning the knowledge of God. Man has two natures and this progression leads from the lower nature to the higher nature; thus, creating a transformation in the spirit of the soul. One cannot achieve this alone. (Edited by Zanjan) Zanjan: Bainyu, you say “Not knowing a lot of things should make us more humble.” If that’s true, how do you explain Jesus being so humble? I’d say not knowing much makes us ignorant and dependent on others, thus foolishly prideful of our own small achievements. Those with the greatest knowledge are always the most humble because they’ve realized their purpose in life is merely to be a servant. If there is any conversion to be made, it's in one's change of heart - that is, to commit one's self to bridging that gap between serving ourselves and serving God. (Edited by Zanjan)  wolfsongstormspirit: Actually Zanjan I think you mean wisdom as knowledge can be a source of arrogance. Wisdom being the appropriate use of the knowledge which the greatest religious leaders have shown eg: Christ, Buddha, Ghandi, Muhammad, the 14th Dali Lama etc. It's the ones who pervert the teachings that get all the attention and in this case it runs uphill to the ones who didn't teach or live that way. :/ bainyu: Wow i never saw your comment. Wth are you talking about... are you okay? You are making assumption that make you look silly. orkanen: Actually, Wolf. There's name for what you describe there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect  xapim: ...stormspirit, did someone ask you something out of context or was this in a religious conversation of whatever anyone believe's ? im from the united states and some may have problems with prayers in school, under god in the pledge , and maybe even remaining silent...I guess this would be other religions verse " Christianity". I prefer human rights.... Zanjan: Wolf.........knowledge and wisdom are not interchangeable - they're two different aspects of comprehension. Knowledge is "awareness". For example: the ground is shaking violently; the soil is turning liquid; bricks are falling off buildings; thus, I'm aware an earthquake is happening. Anyone would have knowledge of this even if they'd never previously experienced an earthquake. But wisdom is something different - it's understanding. Seeing as I understand how earthquakes work and the kind of damage they do, I know what I should do immediately, depending on where I am. Wisdom is acute observation with obedience, a learning of lessons gone before. It's not enough to read a wisdom in a book then agree - one must respond to it. For example; at this time of year, we're remembering what happened in Indonesia ten years ago - people had built establishments close to the beach, ignored the great quake, and didn't move when they saw the water being sucked out to sea, and the wild animals fleeing to higher ground. They stood on shore, when the Tsunami came in and simply watched it, knowing what it was. Arrogance is lack of understanding and respect for a known reality. Wolf, you speak of those who pervert the teachings as being arrogant, yet what of those who know and are aware of the signs of the times but do nothing? (Edited by Zanjan)  quarks: haha oh the great irony "the great irony": Place where whole village gathers to do mass ironing. Typically this place is much stiff. | Religion Chat Room 26 People Chatting Similar Conversations |
