The True Truth (Page 4)

Zanjan: You keep asking the same question over and over again about God's existence; no matter how many people answer them or what the answers are, you keep asking.

The answer is sitting right under your nose; meanwhile, you strain to find the answer you want to hear. Even when you hear it, you still keep asking the same question. Do you realize this is highly abnormal and illogical?

"Why would you think I'd be wrangling with Kings? "

The ancient Greeks asked that question; it was never answered (see above for why)

ghostgeek: I'm the sort of guy that likes to give people a chance Zanjan. If you can prove the existence of God to me, by all means do so. For some strange reason I find I cannot see things that are invisible or hear sounds that are inaudible. Odd I know, but there it is.

dadman1240: no ones "responsibility" to "prove" to you the existence of God .... you reject God in the flesh ?? << your choice .... no skin off any Christian's nose ... your choice / your fate

Zanjan: The responsibility of all believers is to inform you, Ghost. Disclosure is the end of their duty. Yours begins with searching for the truth.

Some dedicated believers have greater capacity, moving on from being the *informers* to experienced and knowledgeable teachers; meanwhile, others become administrators and/or scholars, to provide resources to the teachers.

Neither teachers, administrators, or the learned come to you - you go to them. When you ask, a new responsibility begins equally between you. It's honest work.

" For some strange reason I find I cannot see things that are invisible or hear sounds that are inaudible."

This is a valid, though redundant complaint. So, the right thing to do is ask a Master. Do you ask a teacher to prove everything he says? No, you can ask for an explanation while respecting the teacher's credentials. The student has no credentials.

The same relationship exists between doctor and patient. If you don't take the prescribed medicine, you have no place to complain.

It doesn't strike me, Ghost, that you're looking for an instructor. Thus, it's a perfectly righteous thing for a guru to tell you to take a flying leap. You will not receive any gems today.

ghostgeek: True enough Zanjan, I'm not looking for an instructor. That would presume I already believed, something clearly not correct. Now the truth, yes I could go for that, but where to find it? Do I open the Bible and read the stories therein or should I turn to the Qu'ran? Perhaps the Hindu Vedas hold the truth or the various Buddhist scriptures? Then there are myths and legends from yesteryear. So much, so much. Can it really be true that this pottage of conflicting ideas can lead to enlightenment, or will it just result in a bad case of indigestion? Burp.

ghostgeek: Spoken like a true Christian Dadman. Of course you're not going to prove the existence of God to me, because you can't. If you could, there'd be no stopping you.

Zanjan: " Now the truth, yes I could go for that, but where to find it?"

Decide what truth you're looking for at the moment then search all scriptures that relate to it. Attach stats and any scientific/ historical facts that are relative. Get your collection together and see what matches up.

Determine the level of emphasis on theme topics and your response to them. Of course, this is just a logistical method of sorting fact from fiction.

When all scriptures agree on that particular item, you've got the spiritual truth of this matter. If both science and religion agree, then you've got undeniable truth, figuratively and literally.

In the end, your question will be where you fit into all of that. You can walk away or investigate the religion that seems closest to your heart, culture and level of entry. Each are paths that have led to the same place - you decide which will get you there quicker and which the world is in most need of at present.

ghostgeek: Yes, maybe I could try that, or maybe I could just dance the Hokey Cokey. Funny how the Celestial Cherub makes it so hard for anyone to find Him. It's not as if the chap can't make His presence felt, is it? At least not according to the Bible. At the dawn of history He was always swanning around, hobnobbing with us humans. Then He departs on a celestial cloud, leaving everyone on planet Earth to squabble over religion. I suppose He was feeling a little knackered after all that creating and wanted an overdue kip? Yes, that must be it. We have to believe that, don't we, otherwise we might conclude He may not exist. Oh well, back to the books.

dadman1240: just an overview ....................

The following is often referred to as the "Darby Model". End times prophecy in the Bible is cryptic. So those that truly study it must always realize that we do not have enough to come up with a complete picture by modern standards. The following model is generally accepted by many evangelicals, protestants and some Catholics. This model is only a little over a century old and is by no means definitive. The order of specific details may change, but these are the major elements as many understand them. We should cover these first before we discuss the signs that lead up to them.

* Humanity sinks into depravity.
* Many unprecedented natural disasters occur.
* Many resulting wars and social upheavals occur.
* Christ momentarily returns "like a thief in the night". It's very fast. His feet do not touch the ground.
* First resurrection occurs including all believers living and dead and they meet Christ in the air and are taken away to be with God.
* This first resurrection is often called the Rapture.

* In Israel, 144,000 Jews will receive the gift of prophecy and began spreading the Gospel message. Israel will become the only and total defender of the Judeo-Christian faith.
* The "Beast" comes to power. The Beast (some call the antichrist) will be a god-king demanding political allegiance and worship. He and possibly his prophet will have or appear to have supernatural abilities. Those wanting to participate in his society will have to worship him and take his "mark" on the hand or forehead. Those refusing the mark will be persecuted and unable to buy or sell.
* Additional natural disasters occur killing billions.
* Food and resources will become extremely hard to acquire. Humanity will sink into complete depravity and chaos will ensure. It is indicated but not said directly that Israel may remain somewhat untouched from this chaos and famine.
* Many surviving nations will send armies against Israel. These will meet in a place that is likely the valley of Megiddo in the north of Israel, otherwise known as Armageddon.
* While this is happening on Earth, it is indicated that all believers, now resurrected and with Christ, are judged at the "Bema Seat" of Christ. Believers are only judged by the good they have done. They have all already accepted forgiveness through Christ for their sin. Thus Christ sits over this judgement.
* Back on Earth, armies prepare to attached Israel. Before Israel is attacked, Christ returns along with His believers and angels and completely destroys the armies.
* The Beast and his prophet are thrown into hell. And Satan is chained for a thousand years.
* This is the end of the first seven years know as the Tribulation.

* Christ and his resurrected believers set up a paradise on Earth.
* Society and nature are restored but better than before. People live in peace.
* This lasts for a thousand years.
* This period is often called the Millennial Reign.

* After the thousand years, Satan is release for a short while.
* Evil societies quickly redevelop.
* Their armies surround the people that remain to hold to the principals of God. But God destroys them.
* The Earth is destroyed by fire

* A new Sky and new Earth form.
* New Jerusalem is constructed and floats or is in orbit above the Earth.
* The second resurrection then occurs, everyone that ever lived is now alive.
* The "White Thrown Judgement" occurs. God the Father is the judge.
* Each is judged on both good and bad and all are judged fairly.
* Those without their name written in the Lamb's Book of Life (saved during the Tribulation) will be sent to the land of the dead ("hell". Those saved are "saved".
* Any punishment in hell will be fair and just based on the White Thrown Judgement.
* Ultimately, hell, the grave and death itself are thrown into the lake of fire and burn for ever.
* This is the eternal death.

* Afterward the people of God live with God on forever.

Zanjan: "Funny how the Celestial Cherub makes it so hard for anyone to find Him"

I don't agree. Fact is, every door is a door to the knowledge of God. Don't expect that anyone's going to turn the knob for you, even if you have no hands.

God has always been present; His people have always been with Him. Those on the other side of the fence want to stay put, and they're the majority at the moment. That will change though, it always does.

Dadman, if you don't believe any of that stuff has happened already, you've got nothing to worry about. All Christians in the past have viewed that stuff as something that happens in the future (because it never happened to them) so why should you be any different?

dadman1240: "every door is a door to the knowledge of God" ....

John 14:06 .. Jesus said to him . . . I am the way .. and the truth .. and the life . . . no one comes to the father but through me

John 10:01 .. truly truly I say to you .. he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep ..
......... but climbs up some other way .. he is a thief and a robber
10:02 .. but he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep
10:03 .. to him the doorkeeper opens .. and the sheep hear his voice .. and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out
10:04 .. when he puts forth all his own .. he goes ahead of them .. and the sheep follow him because they know his voice
10:05 .. a stranger they simply will not follow .. but will flee from him .. because they do not know the voice of strangers
10:06 .. this figure of speech Jesus spoke to them .. but they did not understand what those things were which he had been saying to them
10:07 .. so Jesus said to them again . . . truly truly I say to you . . . I am athe door of the sheep
10:08 .. all who came before me are thieves and robbers .. but the sheep did not hear them
10:09 .. I am the door .. if anyone enters through me .. he will be saved .. and will go in and out and find pasture
10:10 .. the thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy . . . I came that they may have life .. and have it abundantly

http://dadmansabode.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=139#p139

once again .... the Word of God replaces error with truth

ghostgeek: Ah yes, the good old End Times. It all seems so complicated, doesn't it. Why not just wind the whole Earth project up, judge everyone and call it a day? Why have Raptures, Tribulations and Parousias when God can just cut to the chase? But, putting that quibble to one side, what evidence have we that anything has changed in the last two thousand years? Wars, plagues, natural disasters; yep they've been turning up regular as clockwork, just as they're doing right now. Yes, we've had the Jews back in their homeland for over half a century and yet more wars, plagues and natural disasters and there's still no reason to think Christ will be returning any time soon. Dadman, if it's signs and wonders your looking for, may I suggest you watch out for things that aren't a recurrent feature of our world.

ghostgeek: Zanjan, of course you don't agree, you're a believer. God doesn't have to put any effort in with you lot. In my book that's rather boring for the old chap. I, on the other hand, give the lad a challenge. "Show me the error of my ways," I cry out to Him. And what do I get for my trouble? Nowt! Only ever talking to the converted isn't going to get the Cherub very far, so the next time you have a natter with Him I suggest you put Him straight.

Zanjan: " if it's signs and wonders your looking for, may I suggest you watch out for things that aren't a recurrent feature of our world. "

Indeed, that's most wise.

History is extremely repetitive and has never shown to be anything but patterns. Yet there's a bigger picture which exposes some rarer things. In science, the pulse waves of advancement are most significant; in religion, it's the *cycles* that have the greatest significance.

All Scriptures describe life as being in constant motion - either in a state of progress or regress, with fluid movement like the tides. Beyond this, they speak of the GREAT CYCLE, likewise described by TWO events - two births and two deaths. Not more. This is what constitutes a full cycle of spiritual evolution.

For example, Noah's Flood - that event marked a cycle. There's the pattern of the Children of Israel returning to the land of Israel - was repeated quite a few times..........ebb and flow. However, their RULING Israel has only happened twice, with thousands of years between. This is very significant - an event that fits with a cycle - that a GREAT CYCLE is completed.

Zanjan: Ghost, so many believers were once in your shoes, with our being shown the error of our ways through practical, hands-on experience. Took a long time and was quite the merry-go-round so, I totally understand your moments of dizziness.

Yep, by the time we were done with the revolving door game, we were nearly delirious.

Could have been serendipity but, one day, it happened we were thrown off that treadmill and landed just far enough away we could get our bearings. It was a thrill of a ride but none of us wanted a do-over.

ghostgeek: Conflict is the one verity that I have never doubted. Now I find that even God is at war. Ragnarök seems our destiny, even if we bring it on ourselves.

trust1g4e: Matthew 7:13,14 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.