Islam or Atheism - Which is More Rational? (Page 5)
Coach-Man: Re Muhammad, Gabriel and Islam...
This should possibly belong to a new thread, so please feel free to go ahead, I just haven't enough time on my hands right now.
I have read the story of how Gabriel made Muhammad recite the passages that later can be found in the Koran several times. But only now did it hit my mind that there is another figure in the outskirts of this narrative that may have been more important than hitherto thought.
Muhammad's wife Khadija had a Christian cousin by the name of Waraqa ibn Nawfal. He was the first to proclaim Muhammad a prophet and interpret the words attributed to Gabriel into meaningful sentenses. I have a growing suspicion that this man was the real driving force behind early Islam and that he only used Muhammad as a front man to promote his own agenda. But Waraqa soon disappears from the story and we may wonder what became of him. Was he brought out of the way by Muhammad's supporters because their doctrines and intentions clashed or is there an even more sinister mystery behind his absence?
Could any of my esteemed co-debaters shed some new light on this fascinating problem?
Sorry to cut myself short, but I have to continue my trip with Swiss tourists in Poland. I can hardly wait to find out what you think, though...
Greetings from Krakow and Coach-Man
(Edited by Coach-Man)
lavendar_star: Interesting I did watch a 2 part documentary on the BBC about the life of Muhammed n done bit of research but that's as far as it goes. Firstly we have to accept that a angel really did visit Muhammed (who like to smoke the old wacky backy n had hallucinations) and then that became the foundations of the Koran. But what you really suggesting is that from the muddle messages that Muhammed alleged received this Christian cousin in law was the guiding hand and possibly was the real author of Islam.
I personally form the opinion that Prophet dont need help is just them and God so to including someone else in the story kinds off downgrade the greatness of the Prophet himself (funny there's never been a female Prophet). I have briefly read few bits on the net and it does seem Muhammed was exposed to quite few well educated Christians in his early life. Anyway, I have to do more research but what I am fascinated with in regards the Koran is the satanic verses.
smoke4ever: If Muhammad never married a widow named Khadijah, he might have spent his life on caravan journeys, with his name still Ubu'l-Kassim.
In Muhammad's time, the Arabian peninsula was populated by wandering tribes which practiced various forms of polytheistic idolatry.
The pantheon of deities they worshipped included angels, demons (djinn) and a supreme god known as Allah.
Muhammad seemed an unlikely challenger to confront such a firmly entrenched animistic religious system.
He was afflicted by a strange disorder that caused him to foam at the mouth and fall into unconscious trances.
Christians might well wonder in retrospect whether such phenomena reflect the symptoms of demonic possession as represented in the Bible.
Muhammad himself questioned whether the seizures were divine or devilish, but his wife encouraged him to ignore any such considerations.
(Edited by smoke4ever)
If we want to doubt what happened to Muhammed, then, we have to doubt what happened to Paul, Moses and Abraham! "To be fair is to be rational"
Atheism = Science explains everything...it is rational too!
BTW, Atheism is NOT a religion..
and about "ISLAM" I have to be fair and say that Islam is encouraging Muslims to learn about science and everything so, Islam is rational too!
I'm confused! we can call everthing rational! if we believes in philosophy.
but if wanna be rational read about philosophy! <- that's what I think.
hope_joy80: If I had to speak rationally, I would like too! but, I cant do it all the time.. cuz I'm afraid that I'll offend both Muslims and Christians! cuz I care about their feelings..they are my friends!
hope_joy80: haha! but muslims will be offended too, since they believe in Moses and Abraham! I think they have had epilepsy too
hope_joy80: The nature of angels is stronger than human nature! that's what muslims explain what happened to muhammed! and to other prophets as well.
In Islam just like the bible, but, I can find these info in the koran,
Moses have spoken with the Lord and then he passed out! <- Not surprising!
Abraham, talked with the angels and heared voices in his head saying, kill your son!
What verses in the Bible does it say Abraham or Moses foamed at the mouth?
I'm not an expert on the Bible, I dont know!
"BTW, I cant call myself a believer or a non believer" I'm just trying to be fair.
(Edited by hope_joy80)
rabbitizer: @ Lavendar_Star
Actually, there is a female prophet (or prophetess, whatever) called Huldah in the Bible. She is mentioned in 2 Kings 22 and 2 Chronicles 34. If we go to Judaism, the Talmud lists up even more, like Sarah, Chanah, Dvorah, Miriam, Esther and Avigail.
Huldah was consulted by the kings of Judah and her standing was on par with that of Jeremiah. Her memory and the significance of her presence were memorialised in "The Gates of Huldah" when the Second Temple was rebuilt.
lavendar_star: Thanks for that @rabbitzer but compared to the number of men its still a small number, I watched a documentary yesterday about divine women it was about how there was many female goddess in the ancient world within all cultures but that decline with the Abrahmic religions even though the decline in female Goddess started with the Greeks.
Crocodilia: Many goddesses were still worshiped at the time of Jesus, like Isis, Anat and the hybridised Artemis-Diana, who had her cult centre at Ephesus. Elements from such pagan idols were actually absorbed by early Christianity, which rather reluctantly accepted this solution instead of prolonging the struggle with troublesome rivals to the "Virgin" Mary, who instead could continue some of the older traditions with Rome's blessing. This was undoubtedly done in an attempt to appeal to pagan groups, whose members insisted on bringing some of their familiar rituals to the new religion before they were willing to convert.
lavendar_star: I see interesting I know in some religions today like Hinduism and other pagan religions they still worshipped female Goddess, Ive heard of Isis and I did watch a documentary that some pagan goddess were still worshipped up until the middle ages in Europe.
But the point I was making generally when you ask someone to name a prophet from any religion they will probably only know the male ones and the fact to make way for a one male God who people call father, female goddess were pushed out.
Crocodilia: The patriarchal mentality from the waterholes has prevailed in all the three Abrahamic religions. Women had their own side of the tents, where they cooked, took care of the children and fed the dogs, while men assumed a controlling role. A much quoted sentence is "as above, so below". But I think that it was the other way around, "as below, so above", because the patriarchs made sure that their god included almost only masculine or gender-neutral properties. Whenever someone tried to invoke the feminine, particularly in connection with fertility rituals, the leading priests objected and tried to stamp out all such herecy that threatened to undermine their position. So, because of this desert dogma, we have been under the yoke of discrimination for at least 6000 years...
(Edited by Crocodilia)
CoIin: ^^^^ Well, we have to be clear about what we're saying here.
If you mean sin as defined by the Church, then of course it exists in a certain sense - it exists because it was invented by the religious. It's ontological status is on a par with, say, a straight flush (as I said above), or grand theft auto, or witches. It's existence is dependent on us and it will exist only as long as we allow it to.
To suggest that Christian sin is a distinction of the world, and not of ourselves, seems pretty crazy to me. It would be like suggesting that a grand slam in bridge/sport was "discovered" rather than "invented".
(Edited by CoIin)