A moral universe? (Page 2)

oh_good_laughs: Erase, what do you mean disbelief?, Are you saying you disbelieve the universe?

So you DO believe that this super complex universe, just happens to be getting by with nobody in charge? By mere chance, the universe stays in miraculous form? What fortunate luck we have

oh_good_laughs: Missy, with evidence showing signs that the universe had a beginning, there really only appears to be one choice.

That, someone created the universe.. What other possibility is there?

oh_good_laughs: Yourehappy,

Can we say that all things are selfish? Altruism is observed in animals, as well as humans.

youllthinkyourehappy: If you'd pay attention you'd see what i meant by selfishness and i believe that since everything in it's essence is neutral. The positive and negative shade to a concept is given by our made-up definitions, that we base on what's practical and comfortable for us is positive and vice versa.

oh_good_laughs: Oh.. um.. alrighty

Point5andahalf: I don't disagree with youllthinkyourehappy, I like this:
"If someone gives something of theirs, it is because it will make them feel better about themselves".
That sounds reasonable, nothing wrong with that.

I wonder how someone feels about themself if they are dishonest? A sense of accomplishment, smugness? I'm referring to the opening post where the dishonest seem to get away with their dishonesty.
We've all got a conscience.

How about a mother protecting her child? There is a deeper instinct for
the preservation of offspring, which we humans try to ignore and override.
True, we are animals. But not just animals.

youllthinkyourehappy: ( That suggests that you yourself have never been dishonest.)
Getting away with being dishonest doesn't mean that they feel good about themselves necessarily.
And making it work to one's advantage just seems to be an unfair tool that "moral people" envy in a way.
But it all comes down to what we consider to be right and wrong.
It's the same discussion if it is right to kill a person who is aiming a gun at you? For some reason people seem to think that it is but who is to say who's life is more valuable?
And how one feels about themselves while being dishonest depends on their pscyhe and the amount of mental disorders or variations, to say the least.


I agree with you on humans being animals.
And we do have basic instincts but they are slowly being overshadowed by many made-up society indulging rules.

Point5andahalf: @Youllthink,
Oh yeah, I know how it feels to be dishonest. I don't like it.
I wonder how others might feel, that's all.
and yeah, enough rules already, we've all got to use our Godgiven consciousness haha jk,I mean our own consciousness.

CoIin: As far as I can see, the universe is operating exactly as we might expect if there were no deity "in charge". Yes, conditions exist to support life; if they didn't, we wouldn't be here discussing it. Meanwhile stars die, mothers die in childbirth. and babies are stillborn. Lots of "good stuff" happens too. I'd hardly call that "miraculous".

Theists tend to focus on "positive evidence" for their God hypothesis. "Negative evidence" is much more significant though. No amount of positive evidence can prove a theory, but just one piece of negative evidence can falsify it.

As Hume said all these years ago, if you wish to assume that like causes have like effects, we might as well infer that our universe was the result of a first effort by an incompetent juvenile deity. Or why not a team of deities for that matter? After all, a ship, say, is not the creation of one person.

As for altruism in nature, try reading The Selfish Gene by Richard Antichrist.

Oolleh: Many cultures had - and to a limited extent still have - a religious belief that included several gods, who shared praise and blame for different things. In this way, the appropriate god got his well-deserved dose of human feedback, including all kinds of moral issues. Instead, the monotheistic God of the Western religions is kind enough to accept thanks, but tend to transfer all blame for negative happenings to his eternal rival, Satan, who, in many religious leaders' opinion, is responsible of all the pain and suffering in our existence. Believe it if you like - I don't!

oh_good_laughs: Missy, the black hole/big bang scenario is fine, but it really isn't an explanation for the beginning.. it took something to have a bang. It's really an explanation for what could have happened AFTER things began.. Also, the universe spawning scenario isn't explaining the beginning, but kind of prolonging the inevitable, what started it?

Has universe upon universe all been a big coincidence?, a by product of chance?.. That our world and universe all came about by unguided, uninfluenced, chance?.. That everything is just floating along, maintaining itself.. just because?

youllthinkyourehappy: The post wasn't for me, but...
If you could look into the super string theory, you might get some answers. To me the equation based explanation, that fits with the rest of the theories still beats the egoistic mythical guy one. Energy is a force that had to exist before the singularity got substituted with our basic 4 dimensions.


Nothing happens *just because, everything happens thanks to movement and reactions between particles that all have come from dynamic energies.
Nothing is just floating along, if you understand at least a fracture of processes that are chemically happening every second everywhere thanks to physical laws.

Harlet: once upon a time, the laws of attraction began, existence began wondering was he, and nature began saying too herself,best be someone else out here,as they began their wondering they eyed one another and boom, the two became one,and in that instance they gave birth,life and rise,too their first born...................................................can you exist with out nature, and is there nature without existence......................the supernatural powered "CROWN" doesn't bother to answer that question either.

LastDragon: Regarding the created/developed universe debate:

Theists like to promote the idea that God has always existed, while the universe was created by him at one particular point in our past.

I reject this idea and replace it with another, where cosmos has always existed and contained one or more universes that come and go according to a set of laws/mechanisms that we have just barely started to understand.

Why is it that:

1. Some people always seem to have a desperate need for attributing unknown phenomena to an equally unknown deity and worship this concept as "the creator of everything"?

2. The same people claim that God is eternal, while cosmos isn't? And that before cosmos there was nothing but God, sitting on a throne of vacuum and playing solitaire, while trillions of years came and went until he suddenly decided to create one - and only one - universe?

I have to admit that I have big problems understanding the logic in such reasoning. But then, what logic is there in belief in the supernatural? Faith is based on assumption and conviction, not logic and reason, so the two of them really don't fit together anyway...

LiptonCambell: >>>Who said the creator was created?

Well, where'd they come from then?

>>> The universe shows signs of a beginning, but we haven't noticed that with a creator.

That's because there is no sign of a creator.

EraseThisFace: @risen_sun

>>>Erase, what do you mean disbelief?, Are you saying you disbelieve the universe?

Looks as though you forgot your very own words:
"I believe there has to be a creator. If one doesn't accept this, then were left with a simple "i don't know"."

The 'disbelief' response was based on your usage of "creator." You say if someone does not accept the idea of a creator existing, the only alternative is to be uncertain of its existence. That is not true.

>>So you DO believe that this super complex universe, just happens to be getting by with nobody in charge? By mere chance, the universe stays in miraculous form? What fortunate luck we have>>

"Fortunate luck" indeed. And in this "miraculous" universe of ours we have planet Earth which harbors societal chaos, global suffering, senseless tragedy. Clearly with such atrocities there is "nobody in charge." Much less an all loving, all powerful god who allows such things to happen day in and day out.

Yeah, my adopted perspective is that the universe does its own thing, and me being a finite human being cannot explain how it works. But in that inability to offer up an explanation, I'm not about to resort to proclaiming a supernatural force is at work.

The Sumerians believed that diseases came from demons because to them that was the only explanation. Now due to technological advances, most people know better. If it can't be explained, well, the popular answer is:
>>>someone created the universe.. What other possibility is there?

Allow me to bestow upon you the title of modern day Sumerian.

Harlet: didn't our species mutate by 2.? percent,did nature mutate those genes,or did existence,what or who programmed our instincts............and why does it appear that humanity mind, character is unable to solve it woes,from selfishness ???? .......dog eat dog, survival of the fittest..............our planet could have self destructed many times in it's own evolution and hasn't, is it self correcting.do other animals ponder upon in some fashion, about a after life, do they even get that they are mortal and organic.why did Hitlers scientist's purposely fail him,they proudly told him of what they could do for him too own and control the entire planet.who or what entered their consciences, conscious, and sub - conscious,so that they willfully and willingly defected, kept saying oops when manufacturing that weaponry....perhaps, it's that very childish notion of a supernatural entity, dressed as every ones santa clause, great gramp pa pa and sugar daddy of all sugar daddies,that gets in the way of many even bothering too understand the supernatural,or that this planet was designed as a gift, to a first born.....................

oh_good_laughs: Youthink, the Super String Theory is not an explanation for the beginning. But an explanation for what could have happened AFTER the beginning..

Physical law?.. The Physical law is the rhythm we've observed by the universe, not an explanation for how things originated. Also, if Physical Laws are to be maintaining the universe, then what is maintaining Physical Laws?, The same problem occurs, IS THIS just a giant coincidence, that Physical Laws stay perfectly functional?, By chance, Physical laws just keep cruising along, on its own accord. How fortunate we must all feel

oh_good_laughs: Erase, mankinds fault doesn't make the universes' maintaining of itself any more probable, AS IF this makes it more likely to be a giant coincidence. That something this magnificent (the universe) is just randomly, miraculously here *and functioning, all by itself..

Oh lucky day, eh?..

pioneer: How can the universe be moral when it only acts according to cosmic laws?

If there really had been an engineer in charge of maintenance, he wouldn't have allowed men to create 10000 religions that contradict each other and kill each other's members in his name, but instead let himself be known in ways that could not be misinterpreted and handed out a moral guidebook that was clearly understood by everybody without the need for a belief in the supernatural.

oh_good_laughs: Ah Pioneer, those questions are cliche.. I imagine you've heard them properly answered 10000 times.

level11: If you ask 10000 questions, you will have a fair chance of receiving at least one sensible answer!

oh_good_laughs: :O

LiptonCambell: So we're just gunna ignore my question, eh risen?

If God was not created, where did God come from?