Why has Christianity gone astray?

Point5andahalf: This is one explanation:
2 Thessalonians, Chapter 2 [Rebellion]
Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him. Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us. Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed—the one who brings destruction. He will exalt himself and defy everything that people call god and every object of worship. He will even sit in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God. Don’t you remember that I told you about all this when I was with you?
And you know what is holding him back, for he can be revealed only when his time comes. For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way. Then the man of lawlessness will be revealed, but the Lord Jesus will kill him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by the splendor of his coming. This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles.  He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them. So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies. Then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth.
As for us, we can’t help but thank God for you, dear brothers and sisters loved by the Lord. We are always thankful that God chose you to be among the first to experience salvation—a salvation that came through the Spirit who makes you holy and through your belief in the truth. He called you to salvation when we told you the Good News; now you can share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. With all these things in mind, dear brothers and sisters, stand firm and keep a strong grip on the teaching we passed on to you both in person and by letter. Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal comfort and a wonderful hope, comfort you and strengthen you in every good thing you do and say.

(New Living Translation)

Point5andahalf: Of course, people will interpret that to mean all kinds of things.
But, what this passage is saying is: there is deception in religion.
Jesus continually criticised the religious leaders of his time, and I'm
sure he would do the same today.

CoIin: Point5: - before going any further, I'd recommend you check if this particular epistle of Paul is considered genuine. If I remember right, only about 7 or 8 of his epistles are universally recognized as genuine. I can't remember if 2 Thes is one of the genuine ones or not.

Point5andahalf: Yeah, I know it may or may not be genuine.

Still, it makes a certain amount of sense.
Especially to those who take it seriously.

CoIin: But it's well known that Paul and other early Christians began the process of transforming Christianity from the religion of Jesus into a religion about Jesus.

eg. How does one achieve salvation? (ie enter the Kingdom of Heaven/God)
Follow the commandments and give away everything you own - Jesus
Have faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus - Paul

Point5andahalf: Please don't drag me into that debate.
I'm only considering the idea that there are false teachers.

I'll have to find some quotes of Christ and others, including from the old testamaent that implies the same teaching.

CoIin: Some may not like this....but since Jesus was wrong in his main message (i.e. the Kingdom is about to arrive), I'd consider him a false teacher, certain gems of wisdom notwithstanding.

Of course, when the "Kingdom" failed to arrive as predicted, JC's teachings were conveniently re-interpreted (beginning around the time the Gospel of John was written). However, Scripture is clear. JC was predicting an imminent reversal of the order of things here on Earth. In this, he was part of a well-established apocalyptic tradition in Judaism and was saying nothing new.

Point5andahalf: Thanks for your interest Colinian,
But, it depends on what is understood about the "Kingdom of God".

The Jews thought the messiah was going to restore their nation, free them from the Romans, and become their worldly King, like King David of old.
But no, his "Kingdom" was a spiritual Kingdom that begins with a change of heart. Not a change of Government.

This thread is an attempt at an explanation why Christianity has strayed from the truth that it purportedly teaches,
... according to Christianity (the bible).


I'm not really concerned with who wrote it. If it was anonymous, I'd still consider it.
The fact is: it appears to be true, and it's biblical.


This is about those who have been mislead by a counterfeit religion.

Nothing to do with those who have rejected it already.
Why would it bother someone who doesn't believe it.

CoIin: I'd have to disagree that Jesus taught the "Kingdom" begins with a change of heart. There were no hints of that until later (John - "my kingdom is not of this Earth", etc), an inevitable result of the non-arrival of Christ's "kingdom". The earlier synoptic gospels clearly express JC's belief that the "Kingdom" was a physical kingdom which was soon to be established here on Earth. But whatever...

For the best-ever treatment of the irrelevance of Christ in Christianity, see Dostoevsky's parable of the Grand Inquisitor in the Brothers Karamazov.

beloved_azi: i do agree that many christians r not following their bible, or may be due to false teachings. but whatever is said in Bible, all words are not the words of Jesus (peace be upon him) it contains words of other people.see the red letter Bible..the words with red print are said to be that of Jesus(peace b upon him) bt if v collect them they r too less than a page of newspaper.Bible is not in its purest form.but i do blieve that Jesus (pbuh) will have his second coming.not to teach anything new.but a sign that the judgement day is near and to tell them what is true and what is not& that he never claimed that he himself is God.lets see...we will come to know if v are alive that day when Jesus(pbuh) would return..which is true and which is not.

nkn: What is said outside the spirit of church there can be no salvation. aLL men of good faith may hope for salvation.

Point5andahalf: well anyway, after that disruption with the changeover to the new site...

Yes nkn, I agree, anyone of faith (and goodwill), may hope for peace (salvation).

And according to the analogy in the gospel, we build on the new temple where Christ is the foundation cornerstone.
It's not a physical temple made of wood and stone by hands, but a spiritual temple made of people, for a higher purpose other than our own immediate desires. That purpose being Peace on Earth, in some future time.

The church/temple is not defined by religions or denominations. It is a body of believers who have a personal conviction and faith in peace on Earth, imo,
- Not bound by any religion.

As the message in the original quote implies:
Beware the false prophets and teachers, (including Paul if he is indeed false).

Dalai Mama: Point 5...you are correct...there are many warnings through out the bible about false prophets......has Christianity gone astray......or have certain "christians"?

"who foils the sign of false prophets" Is44;25 (in reference to i am the Lord)

"This is what the Lord Almighty says: "Do not listen to what the prophets [of Samaria] are telling you, they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord" Jer23:16

In 1 Timothy 1:3-11 PAul warns against heretical teachers that are characterized by teaching false doctirnes, teaching Jewish myths, wanting to teach OT law...

Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the OT covenant, that is why the teachings became different in the new testament...

Colinian...

"Some may not like this....but since Jesus was wrong in his main message (i.e. the Kingdom is about to arrive), I'd consider him a false teacher, certain gems of wisdom notwithstanding."

If you could point to exactly where in the Bible that Jesus says the Kingdom is about to arrive...

"But it's well known that Paul and other early Christians began the process of transforming Christianity from the religion of Jesus into a religion about Jesus."

Well known by who?

"How does one achieve salvation?"

"The salvation of the righteous comes from the Lord; He is their stronghold in time of trouble. The Lord helps them and delivers them; he delivers them from the wicked and saves them, because they take refuge in Him." Ps 37:39-40

"The Lord is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation" Ex 15:2

"my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation'" 2Sam 22:3

"Is it too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth" Is49:6

"Salvation comes from the Lord" Jnh2:9

Sigh...but I am tired so not really thinking straight anymore...

But just some food for thought

CoIin: Mojo - discussion of the "Kingdom" and putative prophesy-fulfilment has been covered ad infinitum in other threads. Try "This might surprise some people" to begin with.

These are issues that people who study the Bible from a devotional perspective and those who study it from a historical perspective are unlikely to see eye-to-eye on.

As for "well known".... what can I say? Well known among those familiar with early Christian history I suppose.

CoIin: "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!" Mark 1:15

And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power." Mark 9:1

I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not
pass away until all these things have happened. ... Mark 13:30

deuce916: The bible is full of it.

Dalai Mama: Omgosh I was so tired last night...

Colinian,I should have been more clear, I was referring to the comment about (dang it) I forget the exact wording....but when you had said (implied, if I remember incorrectly I apologize) he preached about the end of the world, but it was the Kingdom of heaven...

The Bibile is a n historical text as any other, but is believed by Christians to be divinely imspired by God. It's very easy to take some verses out of context and apply a different menaing to them....when I ask questions it isn't to argue, it really is for clarification because I do want to understand the other person's point of view....I am a firm believer in always exploring new ideas and opinions, because I think life is all about learning and growing!

Regardless of whether I or alyone else personally believe in the teachings of the bibke, or even in God, what cannot be denied that the bible tries to exhort us to be good ppl...and I know that it also teaches you can't be saved by good works alone, but the lessons taught are good lessons.

I have read a fair bit about other religions than Christianity, and think the same of them....I always think of the parable of the houses...the "house" built on a strong foundation (the word of God) is the one that will stand...and there are certainly other teachings (IMHO especially Eastern religions) that make sense....

I have to go back in and look at your posts some more, but in no way am I trying to argue what I believe because at this point in my life, I am not really sure anymore

CoIin: Mojo - Nice to hear your point of view. I'm not a Christian myself, but I'm interested in the history of the Bible and Christianity and other religions. I have no doubt that most Christians strive to be decent people, but I would take exception to your comment that the Bible teaches people to be good. The Old Testament in particular is morally abhorrant in my opinion. I for one don't believe that it's good to stone to death people who work on the Sabbath, disobedient children and women who are not virgins on wedding night ( I could go on - the list is endless). Of course, as we know, most Christians ignore (or are not even aware of) such insanity by applying other moral criteria. Then we could talk about murder, rape, genocide, slavery.... It's all in there, and often sanctioned by or commanded by you-know-who.

The New Testament is a huge improvement, of course, but I could also raise some disturbing ethical issues there too.

I totally agree that the words of Jesus must be taken in context. He was not addressing you and me. He was addressing first century Jews in Palestine under Roman rule. To interpret otherwise is absurd. Could a person with no knowledge of American history possibly hope to properly understand the Gettysburg address? I doubt it.

Oolleh: This entire problem is absurd.

What has Christianity actually gone astray in relation to? The so-called "pure" teaching of Jesus that was never a true part of Christianity, but has been written into its theology in retrospect, along with refried elements from earlier pagan religions?

Or has it possibly strayed from a literal, strict, intolerant and arrogant belief into many denominations that have actually become closer to what most Bible scholars now think was the original ideas of Jesus and his movement? If so, the "deviation" must be considered a positive development, since many modern faiths (both Christian and other) seem to focus on universal themes like brotherhood, peace, tolerance and respect, without really discerning much whether such elements come from Jesus' progressive Judaism, Buddhism or elsewhere.

Point5andahalf: I agree with GEM, that we can learn from the teachings of Christ. I don't believe in the man-made doctrines, I only want to understand the true teaching, and it is becoming clearer, (to me at least). Most of the words attributed to Jesus make good sense. I read the bible and I try to understand it apart from the dogma and mainstream beliefs.

The main focus of Christianity seems to getting into heaven.
But I believe the whole bible is about living righteously, not for our own desire for rewards in heaven, but for the benefit of those who come after us. That is selflesness, which Jesus demonstrated in his own life. He didn't do what he did for rewards, but for our benefit. All the great spiritual teachers through the ages are the same.

The "kingdom" Christ preached about did begin at his time. And has persisted to this day, until it will be completed, then there will be peace on Earth.
This is how I understand it, I'm sure others think differently. I'm just sharing ideas here. I'm not convinced about prophecies, but if it makes sense, I'll pay attention.
*******-*******-*******-

The Christianity we know today has strayed from Jesus' original teaching and the movement that he began, so-called "The Way".

There has always been false teachers and prophets.
The "deviation" began around the first century, helped along by the Roman empire since then.
I'm saying that the bible itself warns and condemns the false religion that deceives the believers.

What it means is:- when someone criticizes the Christian religion, the scriptures has criticized it, warned about it, and comdemned it first!!
Funny eh

And sure, Christ taught universal themes. Why wouldn't he, if they are true?

CoIin: Fair enough, but remember that the sayings of Jesus must be read in their historical context. For example, Jesus tells us that people who mourn and people who are hungry (among others) are blessed. What possible sense does that make, unless as historians believe, he was an adherent of the apocalyptic movement and was predicting an imminent reversal of the order of things (the first shall be last, etc). The hungry WILL receive food. The mourners WILL receive comfort, etc. Note the use of future tense. It's only good to be one of the hungry now because that is about to change. In the context of Jewish persecution by the Romans, it's not hard to figure out who the "first" and who the "last" refer to.

Point5andahalf: Yeah, good point, I'll have to look into that.
And also,
The Jews were expecting a messiah to come and take control and cause a reversal at that time, according to their prophets.

But it didn't work out like that, which turns out to be for the benefit of the gentiles and the rest of the nations in the broad scheme.

Point5andahalf: Perhaps those that understood his words and had faith in him WERE comforted and fed.
Those who had no faith in him were not.

I forget where I copied this from but it makes good sense:-

All the teachers of humanity are unselfish. Suppose Jesus of Nazareth was teaching, and a man came and told him, "What you teach is beautiful. I believe that it is the way to perfection, and I am ready to follow it; but I do not care to worship you as the only begotten Son of God."

What would be the answer of Jesus of Nazareth? "Very well, brother, follow the ideal and advance in your own way. I do not care whether you give me the credit for the teaching or not. I am not a shopkeeper. I do not trade in religion. I only teach truth, and truth is nobody's property. Nobody can patent truth. Truth is God Himself. Go forward."

But what the disciples say nowadays is: "No matter whether you practise the teachings or not, do you give credit to the Man? If you credit the Master, you will be saved; if not, there is no salvation for you." And thus the whole teaching of the Master is degenerated, and all the struggle and fight is for the personality of the Man.

Coach-Man: That's because Christianity isn't based on the original teaching of Jesus, but on a deliberately constructed theology centered around the fabricated mythology of Paul and later filled to the brim with elements from earlier pagan faiths.

Christianity's Christ of Faith is a far cry from the historical person Jesus (Yeshua Bar-Yusuf) and what he taught was more like Eastern wisdom than modern Christian doctrines.

If Jesus should suddenly emerge among us, he would surely not have recognised much of what Christianity professes today, because he lived and died as a progressive Jew. To him and his contemporaries, the very idea that a man can be god in the Christian meaning of the expression would have seemed utterly blasphemous.

CoIin: I couldn't agree more. If you said to him "You died for our sins", I'm confident he wouldn't have a clue what you were talking about.

Point5andahalf: That's why they tried to kill him. They accused him of blasphemy. He didn't claim to be God, they accused him making himself equal to God.
I don't know why so many people distrust Paul. He seems to be in agreement with Jesus.

true, east and west have different opinions on wisdom.

The mid-east and Israel are in the middle of the extremes. A balance would be good.