Prayer Does it work for you? (Page 3)

kozmik1234: so much hatre i will pray 4 u

doulas4life: apsolutely, without a doubt, God is faithful to answer the prayers of the saints. iI was in a car wreck and i believe the only reason i survived a major operation that was likely to kill me, is because a church prayed for me.

CoIin: No disrespect meant and I'm glad you recovered, but why did your god allow the car wreck to happen in the first place?

On second thoughts, don't bother answering. God has a reason no doubt.

What would be the response to the following scenarios?

1. you survived the crash unharmed
2. you were injured
3. you died

In either case, does your "explanation" not involve God's will? You would praise God no matter how horribly mutilated you were, and if you died, other believers would doubtless claim that God had a plan for you.

Simply put, your hypothesis is - everything that happens is God's will

Working under such a hypothesis, what's the point of adducing your car crash experience as evidence? Evidence of what? The explanation is God no matter what. You're "proving" what you have already assumed to be true. Try switching Elvis for God in the argument - it works just as well.

Oh, and by the way, your explanation implies that if that church hadn't prayed for you, divine intervention would have been withheld. That doesn't seem very nice at all. I'm quite sure your surgeon would not have demanded that you beg before treating you.

doulas4life: @Colonian
I love the Bible, the Bible which can be validated with history, geography, true unbiased science, and prophecy which is predictions written in the Bible thousands of years ago, by the way many already came true and many more are in the process of coming true;
Anyway this same Bible will back me up when I say God created everything including you.
Same Bible says all authority has been given to Christ.
Matthew 28:18" And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."
Also in colossians it says
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
Colossians 2:10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power."
So naturally colonian i believe nothing happens to God's children without God's permission.
Look at the story of Job God allows satan to put boils all over Jobs body but does not allow satan to kill Job.
p.s. please do not use this as an excuse to question the goodness of God, or the content of His character, this was merely a test God put Job through. God does test us.
2nd of all compare a rock and roll singer who is famous among the sons of men, to Jesus an all powerful, all knowing, diety who created me and is my only hope?
I do not think so. They are not comparable. Elvis can not save your soul or mine.
I made mention of the saints because od hears their prayers, and the prayers of a sinner who is repenting, but sin hinders prayer so if you are rebelling against God and not repenting do not expect the Lord to hear your prayers until you do repent in sincerity and truth.

CoIin: ^^ Sorry, but these are simply the same old circular arguments - you're adducing evidence to "confirm" what you already have assumed. Your conclusions could never be reached through this "evidence" alone.

We could go through your points above one by one, but it's all been done before here, and tends to be futile anyway - the beliefs are far too deeply entrenched.

One final thought for everyone (and it's not meant to be insulting) - if someone (perhaps a tribesman in New Guinea or an ) with no prior knowledge of Christianity was given the Bible to read, I find it highly implausible that he would conclude that the protagonist (i.e. God) was "good".

I would venture that the belief that the god of the Bible is good is a consequence of prior inculcation, the result of which is that no matter what outrages he commits, he will invariably be exculpated by the most ludicrous of excuses.

God "tests" us, you say? Nazi apologists might as well say Hitler was testing the Jews.

P.S. The above reminds me of an experiment I read about some time ago. A group of Jewish children were given excerpts from the Hebrew Bible to read, but with the names of the characters - Moses, Abraham, Joshua, etc - altered, and they were not told that this material was Biblical. They were then asked whether they thought the characters were good or bad. Their answers aren't hard to guess......

P.P.S. The god of the Bible was not meant to be "good" anyway - this is another distortion. His role was divine guardian of the Israelites. If that's "good" then Napoleon was good too. Better not ask the Russians though.

CoIin: Oh, dang, I couldn't resist highlighting one particularly egregious example LOL. You said....

"this same Bible will back me up when I say God created everything including you"

Back you up? Where did this belief come from in the first place? The Bible, of course. So what you're saying is that the Bible will back you up on a belief which you originally got from the Bible?

Do you really fail to see the circularity here? Or do you refuse to see?

CoIin: I really don't get this. It's like me saying I believe I can fly. The problem is each time I jump off the roof, the consequences are painful.

Any belief can be maintained if you shuffle around the other auxiliary hypotheses in the web. Of course, I can protect my belief that I can fly by blaming the crashes on bad weather, incorrect arm movements, planetary alignment, or Satan.

There is however is vastly more plausible explanation......

Agricola: Next time your praying, could you mention that i want a Maserati Gran Turismo Sport, a white one. With dark grey leather interior and sat. nav.

Thanks!

DragonBear: Praying to your God is not a bat phone, or Santa list or any other worldly human desire communication tool that you hook up to and magical demands just appear. If you think that then you need more praying then the rest of us. Praying to me is a conviction that I have a God who wants to listen to me. Who wants to know he means something to me and who understands I believe he is for real.

DragonBear: I'm happy for you grace...and I believe Gods does hear your prayers

Coffrey: Atheists claim that it's just talking to yourself and theists claim that prayers come true based on the few times in their lives that whatever they wanted to happen and not counting the countless times where their prayers were unfulfilled, we all know each other's argument. My only question is for people who think god has a divine plan, meaning that everything is already planned out for the rest of time and anything that has happened, no matter what it is, is absolutely God's will.

My question then is, how can you ask and expect God to change a billion year long plan just for you? Not facetiously I ask this, it's something I can't understand. Either it's massive cognitive dissonance or...... and that's why I ask.

doulas4life: @ coffrey

In response to your comment on unfulfilled prayer I ask you to consider three things
1.) God's own will... a person can pray for something that is not God's will, and if God answered that prayer it could end up doing more harm than good. God not only being loving but also smarter than us will do what is best and what He wants.
2.) God's timing... a person can pray for something but God might want to answer that prayer at a better time. If we do not see a prayer answered immediately we should not assume God did not hear the prayer.
3.)our sin... unfortunately if we have sin in our lives its possible that hinders prayer. Look at this verse for example:
1Peter 3:7 Husbands, likewise, dwell with [them] with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as [being] heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered.
In response to your question: God knows the future, this includes knowing what His children would ask for.
So I believe God decided what He was gonna do about each of our prayers before we were born.
However God wants a relationship with us, personally I think God is even zealous for our affections,
ever wonder why God said not to serve fake gods? Lets look in the book of Exodus.
"Exodus 20:5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
For I, the LORD your God, [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth [generations] of those who hate Me,"
so it would not suprise me if prayer is one of the ways God uses to try to have an active relationship with us.

CoIin: Um, this doesn't make much sense

Look at your point 1). It says... (if I understand correctly)

If it's not God's will, it ain't gonna happen
If it is God's will, it's gonna happen

So what's the point of praying?


Look at point 2). It says... (if I understand correctly)

Don't try to God. God's will shall be done in his own good time

So what's the point of praying?

etc etc....


Then the inevitable Biblical passages..... even they don't make sense

God is jealous? Jealous of what? Other gods?

Perhaps you mean fake gods? How can a god be jealous of fake gods? My wife never gets jealous when fake women are around.

Come to think of it, she never gets jealous at all
She must be imperfect

CoIin: And isn't god supposed to be perfect? How can he be jealous then (never mind what he's jealous of) ? Is jealousy perfection?

doulas4life: @ Colin
All God's followers combined make up the church.
The church is His bride, and the law is like wedding vows.
If we break it that is like breaking the covenant between God and the church. This is part of why I think of the Bible like its God and the enemy of our soul fighting for the bride. God is not willing that any human perish so God wants you to repent and be part of the church, the bride.
and there is nothing sexual or corrupt about it.
so God is jealous of you Colin, jealous of your affections.
Yes God is perfect and the amount of love He has for you only testifies to that, please open your heart before its too late

CoIin: "God is not willing that any human perish "

Erm, didn't he condemn us all to death?

God


And this jealousy thing still seems a wee bit petty, no matter how you gild that lily, baby.

Wouldn't this be like you raising ameobas and getting jealous if some of them didn't love you?

CoIin: Does God care about lower/upper case letters

That seems a wee bit petty too

CoIin: Yes, it's easier for a to enter the of a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom

So, may I assume that you good Christians have given away all you own?

And if there's any stuff left, PM me...