The Man who Challenged the Quran!!!!! (Page 3)

antonello
antonello: The Quran doesn't seem to be all innfallible:

http://www.bibleandscience.com/science/quran.htm
14 years ago Report
0
risen
risen: To say that the bible has been altered a few times would be a MAJOR understatement.
14 years ago Report
0
risen
risen: I am risen I do not believe anything that the bible says.
14 years ago Report
0
oh_good_laughs
oh_good_laughs: Mongrel - I love the way you present a Muslim made website to explain translations. Maybe one day you will come to.
14 years ago Report
0
oh_good_laughs
oh_good_laughs: Talent - Much of the stuff you wrote is hard to understand, so i will deal with the main question you seem to address, although, i have explained this to you before.


There are many different versions of the Bible for different reasons. Since the days of the Biblical writings, the etimology has changed for many words. The Bible has 'revisions' periodically to keep the original meaning behind the text. Also, there are different translations to make it easier for people to read. Some of the language is hard to follow when not put in modern tongue.

These 'variations' doesn't take anything away from the Bible.
14 years ago Report
0
oh_good_laughs
oh_good_laughs: And, for the record, earnest Muslims i talk to tell me there is no guarantee they will pass hell by, they don't know. But, Christ is the guarantee, Christ and the cross.
14 years ago Report
0
john1576
john1576: Talent. By different 'versions' of the Bible I think you are referring to such Bibles as 'The Watchtower Bible' or 'Jerusalem Bible' etc. There is very little difference in these Bibles. They are usually Printed to keep the independence of the Sect involved. The Watchtower Bible has a controversial beginning to Johns Gospel. The Jerusalem Bible allows Rome to keep in the Theological discussion about Bible Texts etc. The Living Bible is a fine clear Translation, The New Authorised Version is a less clear but more in line with the original King James. Again, there is practically no important difference in any of these Bibles.
14 years ago Report
0
Nancy
(Post deleted by staff 10 years ago)
Talent_M
Talent_M: risen for sure u don't understand what I mentioned and always this is not the first time u don't respond, tell me what didn't u understand to explain to u?... secondly about the "guarantee", so u r sure you would be in the heaven from now!!?? u can judge from your position and the god is jobless, really u have strange thinking!!! O man no one can know himself is he right or not, cos we are mankind not complete.
14 years ago Report
0
Talent_M
Talent_M: john not me saying that , either your people themselves saying that, I asked risen what that small alteration, could you compare them with original copy pls, o man there is scriptures had been removed "there is differennces between catholic bible in number of Scriptures about the Protestant bible and by the way they are I think 7 Scriptures in the begining they considered them as extra then became agreed and recognized among christian people then Protestant pirests removed them!!!, why is all of that!!??"
14 years ago Report
0
oh_good_laughs
oh_good_laughs: Talent - "cos we are mankind not complete."

You are right Talent. We are men, we do sin. We have "all come short of the glory of God". Since were not perfect, we cannot look upon God and live, we are filth. We all deserve death, judgment, and hell.

But, for this reason, God sent his son Jesus, to die for our sins, to reconcile us back to God, because God loves us. God loves you.


You can reject Jesus, and you can reject his sacrifice at the cross. It is your choice, your decision.
14 years ago Report
0
oh_good_laughs
oh_good_laughs: Talent - On your comment about the 'small alterations', i've answered it a couple different times now. I guess you didn't understand me, or it wasn't what you wanted to hear..


Small alterations happen, of course, due to the hand copying process before the printing press, but nothing significantly taken away from the meaning. Nothing taking away from Christ.

Now you ask, where are the small alterations?, Well, if that could be answered, i guess we wouldn't have 'small alterations'..



Did you not read MagicSpells comment on page 4 Talent? It seems you keep attacking the Bible over the hand copying process, when the Quran is susceptible to the same thing..
14 years ago Report
0
oh_good_laughs
oh_good_laughs: Nancy - You're right. I should say, "by faith" i have received this guarantee.
14 years ago Report
0
flashie
flashie: the korans different to the bible risen in that its an oral 'book' hence it not being written and revised until later on. and as example the first verse to be revealed isnt the first chapter or surah/image of the koran.

but it does hold weight as the 'book' rhymes, so its very difficult to edit or revise. its memorised by kids as young as 9yrs even in london. its pretty cool, it cant be changed.

the message of the book is same as all monotheist prophets christian/judean in it says worship god avoid false god and worshipping creation, blatantly.

its literally brilliant, scientifically on point, very overlooked piece of history.
14 years ago Report
0
satsunmon
satsunmon: Risen is persistent with faith in christ which is why he is able to win arguments.
14 years ago Report
0
john1576
john1576: Talent. The scripture you refer to in Catholic Bibles but not Protestant ones is called 'The Apocrypha'. They are as far as most Protestants are concerned on the same level as Gnostic writings (but not as outlandish).
14 years ago Report
0
Talent_M
Talent_M: "But, for this reason, God sent his son Jesus, to die for our sins, to reconcile us back to God, because God loves us. God loves you."

Risen by the way not all people think like you, so consider me not fully aware about your religion and explain to me particularly one by one pls I want understand and any of my queries u havn't understood it just address them to me to re-explain.

* Once you are saying they are three gods and once you said they are three in one, so let me know if they are separate gods or they are one but in different statuses!!

* you are saying that the god father sent his son to die for our sins, so what about the people before the crucifixion who they didn't know about Jesus(pbuh)? but probebly you would say, he died for all people whether before or after, but I'm asking did those people knew that Jesus is their way to the heaven? if you have any evidence that before Jesus(pbuh) crucifixion like Adam or Noah or Moses, Aabrah..etc and how did know that, pls mention it.

* if the God loves us, I want to know pls,why the god father sent his son to die for our sins!!??I mean there many options as long as he loves us, he can do anything to remove our sins, you know he is god,on other word he is great, and sending his son Jesus to let him be punished, draged along, whipped and secured on the cross by evildoers isn't suffering and insult to his son, I mean why did he select this option!!??

* someone would ask this question, if he died for our sins, what is the point from the hell now!!?? you know, we have became sinless now, right? and we all will enter the heaven?, if he died for my sins,okay that's it no need to be christian now, whatever I did, at the final I'm sinless,so following the christianty is pointless or we can say not obligated and if that's true, means the atheist people are on the right way, so no need to get any headache to embrace the christianity and enough to say word of thanking to Jesus about what he did for us!!

* you mentioned about the "guarantee", in Islam the guarantees to the heaven are your deeds and every deed has scores and would be weight by the accurate balance on the judgement day, if you will have had right deeds more than wrong deeds you will enter the heaven, if the wrong deeds weightier than right deeds you will enter the hell, and by the way could anyone can calculate and differentiate between his deeds over life!!? I would tell you something if you have a guarantee to the heaven from now, so any christian one could kill himself, o man you have better life in the heaven than here, or you can kill anybody as long as you are sinless as well as "heaven guarantee", isn't right?
14 years ago Report
0
Talent_M
Talent_M: you said "Did you not read MagicSpells comment on page 4 Talent? It seems you keep attacking the Bible over the hand copying process, when the Quran is susceptible to the same thing.. "

O man havn't got it yet,I thought u got it, Ford got it quickly I think, I hope you whouldn't thought that guy has a real Magic, hey he only copied and pasted from wiki answers, try and google his mentioned text on page 4 and find out...lol, he mentioned his antagonism only from the website and forgot the answers, okay take the response then:

Magicspell said but wasn't his saying, he copied it and pasted:

"Most Qur'anic experts attribute the Qur'an in its present form to post-7th Century alterations. The consensus is: "Almost universally, independent scholars studying the Qur'an and Hadith have concluded that the Islamic scripture was not revealed to just one man, but was a compilation of later redactions and editions formulated by a group of men over the course of a few hundred years. The Qur'an which we read today is not that which was in existence in the mid-seventh century, but is a product of the eighth and ninth centuries. It was not conceived in Mecca or Medina, but in Baghdad. It was there and then that Islam took on its identity; and became a religion.""

okay you have the response:

It doesn't make sense that many people can come up with one scripture one at a time, coz if the Quran is so unique, this is the biggest evidence that it was driven from one source, revealed on one person, that's to say; God's words revealed to his last prophet, Muhammad, may peace be upon him.
*******-*******-*******-*******-*******-*******-*******-----
Because the origins of Islam and the Qur'an are dubious. This is the opinion of renowned scholars and professors of Islam, history, Arabic and many other fields. Among them - Dr. John Wansbrough, American historian who taught at London University's School of Oriental and African Studies; Professor Joseph Schacht, professor of Arabic and Islam at Columbia University in New York and a leading Western scholar of Islamic law; Dr. Patricia Crone, a scholar, author and historiographer of early Islamic history working at the Institute for Advance Study; R. Stephen Humphreys, professor of history and Islamic studies at the University of California at Santa Barbara; and Professor Andrew Rippin, professor of history and specialist in Islamic studies at the University of Victoria, B.C., Canada
"Almost universally, independent scholars studying the Qur'an and Hadith, have concluded that the Islamic scripture was not revealed to just one man, but was a compilation of later redactions and editions formulated by a group of men, over the course of a few hundred years. The Qur'an which we read today is not that which was in existence in the mid-seventh century, but is a product of the eighth and ninth centuries. It was not conceived in Mecca or Medina, but in Baghdad. It was then and there that Islam took on its identity and became a religion. Consequently, the formative stage of Islam was not within the lifetime of Muhammad but evolved over a period of 300 years."

Hint:
Here, the all names mentioned do not include one name of an Arabic Islamic scholar, all are western scholars, and those can't reveal the truth as long as they don't speak Arabic as their 1st language, so it is necessary that they wont be able to get the full understanding of what the Arabs themselves spent years to study and understand, which is the meaning of Quranic verses and the miracles revealed in them.
14 years ago Report
0
Talent_M
Talent_M: Later on Magicspell said and as usual wasn't his saying (copy- paste):

"After having read the Qur'an a couple of times and read much about it, my personal opinion is that it is a cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants. The Qur'an claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or clear, but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur'anic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur'an is not comprehensible, if it can't even be understood in Arabic, then it cannot make sense in any language. "

you have the response:

Here is another misunderstanding, if the Quranic verses were present long before Prophet Muhammad lived, then why didn't anybody before him bring them up?
And from where can an illiterate man get such "difficult to understand words, as claimed here"? and if so, why did he come up with such revelations in his late 40s not during his early youthful years?, and what did he gain from all of this but suffer and hunger, and loss of his dearest relatives? what would make him bear all that?
Concerning the meanings of the verses, if these verses are not really a miracle, there meanings would have been revealed all at once, then they wouldn't be suitable for every time and any place. Here is the miracle, that you can get the meaning that meets the requirements of your present time without corruption of the original verse, hence, an illiterate man can understand it like a Quranic scholar, and those who lived in the early 1400 years would understand it like people of nowadays would, and this is the problem of translation of meaning, it can't reach that point. only those who study Arabic can understand this issue.
14 years ago Report
0
Talent_M
Talent_M: okay John but do we see them those 7 scriptures are accepted in Protestants bible!!??
14 years ago Report
0
john1576
john1576: Talent. No am afraid not. While the 66 Books of the Bible are accepted by Protestants as 'Inspired' Books, the Apocryphal Books are not. To be fair to the Catholic church they do not say they are inspired Books, they say they contain useful moral teachings.
14 years ago Report
0
oh_good_laughs
oh_good_laughs: Flashie my friend. The Bible is too big to memorize it all. And, it is a book of lives, of religious guidance, God's actions, not a rhyme.
14 years ago Report
0
oh_good_laughs
oh_good_laughs: Talent - I have never made mention of "3 Gods". I have never made mention of the "trinity", it is you who keeps bringing these up. All i "bring up" is faith in Christ, faith in his bloodshed, the other things are minor, are irrelevant for salvation.


-The Bible says Abraham (Old-testament) was saved by faith. It says Abraham had a circumcised heart, Abraham held God's commandments in his heart, and had 'faith' in the 7th day (God's rest). The rest of God. Also, the people of the Old-Testament had blood sacrifices, the Bible says - 'Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins'.


-Also, to follow the answer, i do see signs that the people of God 'anointed by God's spirit' knew of Jesus. Jesus refers to this, he refers to David,

"And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David? For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son?," (Mark 12:36).

Moses said when he was afraid, "O my LORD, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send.," (Exodus 4:13).


-God chose Jesus' sacrifice in order to keep his word, his law. If God would take back his word, his law, then he wouldn't be God. He sent Jesus to 'fulfill the law' set by God. So as we do fail God's 10 commandments, Jesus is there to act as atonement. We don't deserve it, but God loves us that much.


-Jesus did pay the penalty of sin Talent, but one has to receive that by faith. If you don't accept God's gift to you, then you won't receive it. It is a thing of faith, the Bible constantly says - 'Faith, faith, believe, believe'.


-I see, Islam believes a persons own deeds can save. That deeds can out weigh sin. But if God is perfect, wouldn't one sin seperate us from him? Did not one sin seperate Adam from God in the garden of Eden? Sin and God cannot dwell together.
14 years ago Report
0
oh_good_laughs
oh_good_laughs: Talent - You said Mohammad suffered greatly by the things he wrote. I thought that Mohammad was greatly accepted by the middle-eastern people. I thought the people welcomed a 'prophet' after their own race.. The only group (to my knowledge) that gave Mohammad the 'cold shoulder' were the "Christ-ones", meaning the Christians, and the Jewish.
14 years ago Report
0
oh_good_laughs
oh_good_laughs: Talent - I didn't understand all of the expalnation you gave on the Quaran writings, but i believe it was the original meaning of the Quaran thru time allows only scholars the specific origin of meaning and translation. As well as, the message of the Quaran remains the same..

With that, i will say, i don't disagree.


But, similarly the Bible has many scholars (in hebrew, greek, latin) who spent a great deal of time looking thru each manuscript, transferring the scripture in English. One could argue against the accuracy of the text, but those most knowledgable of the languages (of the Bible and English) were able to transfer it adequately. To disagree with the 'accuracy' seems vain.
14 years ago Report
0