Imagining a world where humanity discards organized religion and lives in harmony

davesdatahut
davesdatahut: As I watch the ongoing, unresolvable fights between Muslims and Jews and Muslims and Muslims in the Middle East - accentuated by the childish and inappropriate lecture this week of Obama by Netanyahu - I imagine world where humanity discards organized religion and lives in harmony, some time in the distant future. Unfortunately, some time in the TOO distant future.
Can you imagine this world?
9 years ago Report
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chronology
chronology: davedata. This will never happen. You cannot sell people cures for flat feet, Pyramid letter scam schemes, or Real Estate in the Arctic, but it is perfectly legal to pedal any 'Pie in the Sky' BS without providing any evidence there is any honesty or truth in what you are peddling to gullible people. Few Politicians will go anywhere near regulating Religion, it is just too much of a 'third rail' issue.

Sorry dave, your hopes for such a world are a long way away. Americans have set a fine example for keeping religion out of rational society, but in India, a Law was signed into practice only a few days ago making even possessing meat a crime punishable by 5 years in jail. This Law was prompted by religion.
9 years ago Report
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SWlNE
SWlNE:
Take out the religious issue in the Israel-Palestine Conflict:
Everyone suddenly becomes an atheist.
The land issue remains. The displacement, etc. The political issue remains.

I'll tell you, a world without Religion will still have its issues. So no, I can't imagine that world.
8 years ago Report
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Of course a world without organized religion will still have issues because the human condition has issues. But organized religion just makes it worse, a lot worse, because of all the division and hatred it foments.
It is important to note that I speak of organized religion, as opposed to pure religion, which is a whole nother thing. I'm talking about religious clubs and organizations that form around religious teachings and concepts, and corrupt them.
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SWlNE
SWlNE:
Organised religion to me is a façade, an excuse. It can easily be replaced by another excuse.

Organised religion vs 'pure religion' and what will this difference be?

Edit: I'll explain it further. The teachings can be used (or as some will say 'misused' ) to meet a specific goal of an individual in order to gain support. The goal will still be there, no?
(Edited by SWlNE)
8 years ago Report
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shadowline
shadowline: Most conflicts in the world today are not caused by religion. Religion's effect that way is small and local, now. Muslims killing one another in the Middle East is probably the only conflict in the world today in which religious belief itself is actually the prime factor. Back when there was a conflict in Northern Ireland no one was leveling a rifle over disagreements about the Trinity or the Virgin Birth. Israel is simply trying to survive, not to assert its religion in any way, still less to inflict it on anyone else.

Hinduism has occasionally manifested itself in violence, but very little, from what I hear of it. Buddhism, as far as I know, has never turned violent. Neither has Taoism. Christianity motivated a lot of violence back when it was believed with a literalness that probably none of its adherents entertain today, but it seems pretty tame now. Judaism seems to have been violent, or had a capacity for it, many long ages ago in the days of the prophets. But it appears to have lost that capacity now.

That leaves, of course, Islam - the only religion in world history to actually preach violence against unbelievers, and the only one to have been originally spread by war and conquest. Not too surprising that that is still so violent. The problem there seems to be what is actually being preached, "jihad", which would be something that is not preached by any other world faith, that I am aware of.

I'd be interested to know what "true religion" is. Believers in religions regard their beliefs as true, whatever someone who rejects those beliefs may think.
8 years ago Report
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SWlNE
SWlNE:
I always think over the case of Muslims. There are so many and only a small group are extremist. How is it that the others remain normal and live reserved lives if the teachings are suppose to be violent and against non-believers.

A part of me is curious to know how the world will be without religion. I know that it'd not be 'peaceful' for sure or 'harmonious'.
(Edited by SWlNE)
8 years ago Report
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Communist_
Communist_: Removing religion is simply the first thing communism imposes!
"Religion is the root to all evil; remove religion you bring peace" Vladimir Lenin

"Religions have divided us. Separated us. Started unnecessary wars. All over who has the best imaginery friend" Leon Trotsky

"A world without religion will be one step towards peace" Ernesto "Che" Guevara
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shadowline
shadowline: Oh boy, Lenin, Trotsky, and Che Guevara. Wisdom personified.
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chronology
chronology: 'Lenin' died at 51 killed by either syphilis or poison. Trotsky, stabbed to death with an Ice Pick, Che Guevara killed by U.S. Special Forces.
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SWlNE
SWlNE: Che was killed by the Bolivian army.
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chronology
chronology: He was photographed standing between two U.S. Special Forces men before being shot. Maybe the Bolivians did the shooting.
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Pragmatic Aristocrat
Pragmatic Aristocrat: Well I am sorry friend but you are delusional. With or without religion there would still be conflict. In America in the past there was wars between the blacks and the whites and that has nothing to do with religion.

You simply are using religion as an escape goat for all the problems that exist in the world. What about the fact that one day we are going to run out of oil? There is only so much oil and man kind can not make more. The war over Oil has nothing to do with religion either.

So even with your escape goat dead there will always be conflict. You might also be amazed that Christianity is not the only thing which does not agree with homosexuality. There is a lot of groups that dont.

I personally dont care either way if its not personally hurting me or anyone else let people be who they are. So your post just shows that you are delusional or pushing an agenda to destroy religion to make yourself feel better and help your own cause. Open your eyes. People would separate and judge each other if we were the same race, color, gender, sexuality and religion. Its just what people do.

So a world without is simply that.. A world without religion not a world with peace and free of prosecution.
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Communist_
Communist_: So...The Pope didn't order crusades in the name of Christianity to kill every Muslim and Jew in Jerusalem?
So ISIS is forcing an Islamic caliphate throughout the Arab world?
So the Catholic French did not attack the Orthodox Russians for following different beliefs?
So the Ottomans did not kill 2m Armenians and millions of others for being non Muslims?
So Hitler's Christian Nazi movement did not kill 7M Jews?
So the USA did not invent the phrase "In God we Trust" on the 1950's to fight USSR who were a Godless state, ending up killing millions in Vietnam and Korea?
So the Umayad caliphate empire did not kill millions of non Islamic believers?
So al Qaeda has not killed thousands of non Islamic believers and ordered a worldwide jihad on every non Muslim?
So the British Empire (Protestant) did not fight the French Empire (Catholic) over religious disputes, resulting in a 100 year long war killing tens of millions?
So the Catholic Spanish Armada did not attack the Protestant British Empire?
So the Hindus in India did not kill 40m Muslims because of their belief?
So the Muslims in India did not kill 80m Hindus because of their belief?

I can go on?
But if course "Religion is peace" BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
8 years ago Report
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Communist_
Communist_: "Nationality divide. Race divide. Ethnicity divide.The flag you represent divide. The side of the border you were born on, divide.

Obviously there wasn't enough divide already in this world, so God sent down prophets to create further divide"
- Leon Trotsky

Now, yes...There was already great divide. But the divide that religion has bought was even greater. It was unnecessary as there was enough already. Like you said, white vs black (race divide).

But removing religion will be a huge step forward towards breaking all the barriers that separate humans apart. The greatest barrier is religion. So maybe removing religion won't bring total peace, it will be a huge step towards it.
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Pragmatic Aristocrat
Pragmatic Aristocrat: @Communist the point of this post is saying if we remove religion all of the worlds problems would be solve. Which is incredibly delusional since even if we agree religion creates a lot of problems there is still many problems in this world unrelated to religion.

I been picked on since middle school for my race and no one ever brought up my religion. They picked on me because of my heritage as well as that there has also been a lot of prosecution of religion as well and I dont think you can say Nazi were religious since they were killing off the Jews and Muslims. Right now the Christians are supporting the Jews against the Muslims. In fact Germany under Hitlers rule wanted you to worship Hitler not god first. Hitler was the savior, Hitler was fixing Germany, and Hitler was freeing the German people from prosecutions by the other Europeans after the First World War. That is what Adolph told his country.

I dont think if you told Hitler I would not do this because my religion says not to that he would stand for it. He would have shot you on the spot. That was the rule of HITLER! Hitler rules was fueled by racism and hatred against religion. Through the years there has been people prosecuted for not being religious as well as being religious. There has also been people willing to die for beliefs or lack of beliefs.

While you can say "Well they did it to us before" revenge for past sins is not going to create peace. So really everyone needs to get over the butt-hurt and realize the past is the past we cant fix it now and we cant ruin future generation over our ancestors conflict. Its not our conflict! If you want peace you need prejudice to end and killing off one group in the name of peace or prosperity(Adolph Hitler) is not going to fix anything. It just shows your as ignorant as everyone else.
8 years ago Report
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Pragmatic Aristocrat
Pragmatic Aristocrat: Hitler also killed a good number of Catholocs.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims
Here this tells you which groups were on the chopping block come Hitler.
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Communist_
Communist_: Hitler was a Christian.
He was baptised at an early age.
Attended mass regularly according to Goebbels Diaries. (Joseph Goebbels was second in charge).
He constantly mentioned "God" according to Morelle's accounts. (Theodore Morelle was his personal doctor).

If that isn't proof for you, then Hitler wrote a book called Mein Kampf. In this book he put down his ideology, now here is an extract from the book:
"acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator"

In 1922, in a speech he said:
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter [...] who [...] recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them..."

In a 1928 speech he said:
"We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity ... in fact our movement is Christian."

In 1940, a state poll was carried out.
96% of the Nazi's were Catholics.
2.5% Protestant
0.5% Orthodox
1% others.

So before insulting someone (which is a very common method by religious who lose an argument) please tell me how the Nazi's weren't Christians?
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Pragmatic Aristocrat
Pragmatic Aristocrat: So explain to me why he murdered Catholics if the war was about Christianity ruling the planet? Hitler killed anyone who got in his way. Be them Jew, Polish, Gay, Muslim, Catholic and did not have his perfect vision. The list is right there of who he did kill and that includes Muslims, Catholics, and Jehovah Witnesses, Jews, Polish. Obviously he was not dictated by any such religion he had his own goal and did not care what lengths it took to win. This was about Germany and taking over the world and making them pay for how they wronged the Germans in the past. It had nothing to do with God or being Christian and if that was the case he would not have murdered so many Jews, Muslims, and Christians. So that blows your theory that it was a "Christian cause" out of the water. Also Jews and Christians dont traditionally dislike one another and have defended each other on numerous occasions. In fact the Christians are defending the Jews right now.
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Communist_
Communist_: So everything he said about his movement being a Christian movement was a lie?
He killed the catholics that went against his strict laws.
it resembles ISIS movement right now, many Muslims disagree with it but the movement after all is an Islamic movement. Isis are Muslims and have also killed thousands of Muslims, ones that go against their strict laws.

Christians and Jews have a terrible past. Like the crusades ordered by the Pope.
The current situation isn't about Christians being friendly with Jews. It's Pro Zionism and Anti Zionism, which is completely something else.
Putin is a very devoted Christian but he's against Israel.
Bush openly admitted hes a bad follower of Christianity but is a Zionist.

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chronology
chronology: Mr Bush said he was not a perfect Christian, not a 'bad' one. At least he had the honesty to say so. The rest of us would probably duck the question.
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Adorable, for sure there would be conflicts without organized religion. My post was deliberately exaggerated to suggest that a world without organized religion would be a manifestly more harmonious one. Or a world with one less cause - and a very large one it is, the religion business - for conflict.
Humans will indeed find other things to fight about. But few things cause as much strife, division, hatred and bloodshed as organized religion. So I say ditch the religious clubs, let people worship or be spiritual in their own individual ways and reduce a good bit of the world's conflict.
While I have no love for Communism, as it is a system that cannot possibly thrive, I do agree with the essence of what @Communist is saying about religion. Or at least organized religion.
(Edited by davesdatahut)
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Pragmatic Aristocrat
Pragmatic Aristocrat: @Dave if you want to give people the freedom to worship and be spiritual how they want that means you cant condemn people for being religious. So you would be contradicting your very own cause. As an American I was told that the spirit of America is built on the idea that everyone should be able to worship and believe whatever they want without prosecution. That individuals should be able to express themselves without threat of murder. What your post suggests is that we destroy religion in the name of peace. Yet you say this will let people worship and believe how they wish when it doesn't. If you want people to have the freedom to worship and believe as they wish you cant be prosecuting them for doing exactly that. Its also obvious Hitler had no mercy for anyone who stood in his way.
8 years ago Report
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Adorable, please re-read what I said...I refer to "organized" religion. In other words, the divisive, hate-mongering clubs formed around the concept of religion.
For the record, I actually DO support the right of people to form whatever religious club they want. It is a right ingrained in the great U.S. Constitution and I would defend that right fully. I just wish the whole idea of organized religion didn't exist, because of all the havoc it causes.
So, yes, people have a right to have their religious clubs and it is a right that must be defended. But in a better world, it wouldn't be necessary. And we'd all be better off.
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chronology
chronology: dave. Part of the problem is the concern many Americans have for their fellow citizens. They believe being Gay will land those Americans in Hell. Even worse, they think God will punish America for allowing wholesale 'smash mouth in God's face' rejection of sexual laws found in the Bible.

Like you have eloquently debated here, there is a 'separation of church and state' and Gays have a right to be treated with the same respect and consideration as anyone els.

Ireland, the most catholic country in Europe has just voted in Gay marriage, it looks like America will follow suite soon or later.

American church folks do not seem to hate Gays so much as love America. We can only hope 'love' and not 'hate' will win the day. And that America will continue to be a nation of liberty, but also a nation where people can express their heartfelt convictions about showing respect for the Deity in their own way.
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shadowline
shadowline: There are objections to gay marriage which have nothing to do with religion. When the legalization of gay marriage was forced on Canadian society, by a government that didn't even consider asking the electorate what they wanted, most Canadians objected, and I can assure you that most Canadians are not religious, in any form. In that instance it was those who objected who were being discriminated against, and the whole process had nothing to do with religion. It was also grossly undemocratic. At least Ireland introduced it by popular vote. I would recommend that approach.

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