Is Israel going crazy? Outbackjack: Is Israel cracking up? There have been more and more reports in recent days that suggest the political culture is going crazy; and that there’s nothing to hold that craziness down. There was that argument in the Knesset in which a Palestinian parliamentarian was dragged out after calling Moshe Feiglin a “fascist.” There’s that Avigdor Lieberman “peace plan” that has just one idea: pay Palestinians to leave Israel. And that from the country’s Foreign Minister! There’s the prime minister’s bill to bar the Palestinian flag as an “enemy” flag at demonstrations and deport Palestinian Israelis accused of crimes to Gaza. There’s the new bill to declare Israel the “nation state of the Jewish people,” which would demote Arabic from being an official language so that the 20 percent non-Jewish population don’t get any ideas that this is their country, too. The bill would formally define Israel as “belonging to Jews around the world” and “make ‘Jewish tradition’ and ‘the prophets of Israel’ a primary source of legal and judicial authority” (per Jonathan Cook). The bill has already borne fruit. There was a bookburning at a bilingual school in Jerusalem two nights ago. And warnings of more bookburnings from a leftwing graffiti artist: “In a place where nation-state laws are passed, books will be burned.” Outbackjack: The fascism allegations are going in both directions. Several leading politicians who oppose that bill were pictured on Facebook wearing Nazi outfits. The Times of Israel reports that the minister of public security has demanded an investigation of the satire, because it crosses a line: Fabricated images of the president of Israel, top ministers and the police chief dressed in Nazi uniforms were published on the Internet on Sunday as a protest against their objection to a controversial bill that defines Israel as a Jewish state… A caption accompanying the montage called them, “The anti-Semites who oppose a Jewish state in the land of Israel.” According to information in the Facebook account profile, “Zoabi” is a resident of Tel Aviv and a graduate of Tel Aviv University, and claims to be employed by the IDF. And here’s another fearful report. Singer Amir Benayoum released a shockingly racist song called Ahmed Loves Israel, which says that Palestinian Israelis are just waiting to stab Jews in the back. Rogel Alpher in Haaretz writes that Israelis shouldn’t be shocked by it: “A Racist Society Composes Racist Songs.” Here are some of the hateful lyrics, thanks to Uri Avnery. Today I am moderate and smiling Tomorrow I shall ascend to heaven I shall send to hell a Jew or two It’s true that I am just ungrateful scum But I am not to blame, I grew up without love The moment will come when you turn your back to me And then I shall stick into you the sharpened axe. When I was in Israel last month, I went to a demonstration at which 50 rightwing Jewish demonstrators shouted “B’Tselem is Hamas” — equating a human rights organization with the Palestinian Islamic political force — and at which a young man explained calmly/angrily to me that he is a Jew before he is a human being (minute 4 at the link). Being familiar with American political culture, I wanted to believe the demo was a bunch of knuckleheads; but it had ministerial support, as Angela Godfrey-Goldstein explained to me (she’s the blonde woman wearing glasses who’s in the video, a human rights worker), and a lot of folks trying to attend the B’Tselem exhibit were harassed/threatened. Dan Cohen reported from that event that the rightwingers accused the human-rights advocates of being Nazis and threatened to make “soap” out of them. At another rightwing demonstration, I interviewed three Israeli-American Zionists with a bad case of Jerusalem syndrome: they want to destroy the Muslim sites in the Old City and replace them with a Jewish temple. Just a few knuckleheads? As Allison Deger has reported, they have the support of government ministers. “Netanyahu appears to have adopted a political strategy of intentionally aggravating relations between the state and the Palestinian minority, in part, it seems, to position himself as the true champion of an Israeli public moving ever further to the right,” Jonathan Cook says. In short, Israel’s leaders are catering to knuckleheads and crazies because there’s a political payoff. Max Blumenthal saw/predicted a lot of this with his book of a year ago that the mainstream has done its best to ignore. Now at last the global community is frightened by this trend; the New York Times says Netanyahu’s initiative is “heartbreaking” for those who believe in Israeli democracy. You don’t have to be such a romantic to recognize that the political culture in Israel is going nuts; and that a lot of this craziness is the natural result of enfranchising one ethnic/religious group and disenfranchising another.  davidk14: . All democracies have issues. Best you can do? Perhaps blame the Jews for the worlds negative economy too? Typical anti-Jew rhetoric. How about blame the Jews for being Jews. Nice. 14 Million Jews on the planet. And you hate them too. And considering there are only 5 million living in Israel, those that side with Hamas, created by the Muslim Brotherhood to eliminate the Jews, and you support this. You have not condemned the violence caused by Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran against murdering Jews. And then you have a fit when the Jews defend themselves? Seriously. You can run from these truths...but you can not hide from them either. . CoIin: "You have not condemned the violence caused by Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran against murdering Jews." - David I'm sure you recall, David, that I asked you in another thread not long ago if you were willing to condemn the countless acts of murder, violence, and yes, genocide, perpetrated by the Israelites in the Hebrew Bible. You twisted and squirmed and danced and gyrated. But you would not answer the question. Would you like to do so now? (Edited by CoIin) davidk14: . Colin said: I asked you in another thread not long ago if you were willing to condemn the countless acts of murder, violence, and yes, genocide, perpetrated by the Israelites in the Hebrew Bible. David responds:  What babble....is that question? Jack posted this thread asking a question. Why not stick to the thread topic. If you like, start another thread and name it "Why is it that Jews perpetrated genocide in the past". Then I will be happy to answer that stupid question of yours. Until then, stay on topic. Thank you. Jack said: How about addressing the truths in this post instead of your usual boring smokescreen. David responds: I did. Your mind is closed. Sealed. You support Hamas. . Outbackjack: "Jack posted this thread asking a question. Why not stick to the thread topic" Practice what you preach Davidk. Again you avoid the topic. CoIin: Colin said: I asked you in another thread not long ago if you were willing to condemn the countless acts of murder, violence, and yes, genocide, perpetrated by the Israelites in the Hebrew Bible. David responds:  Translation : "No, I don't condemn any atrocities committed by the Israelites. Now, can we PLEASE get back to the real issue of condemning these animals who perpetrate atrocities against us?" CoIin: Or, put another way.... Bill : That dude in the pub punched me. He's a disgrace and should be condemned. Bob : But you punched him first. Bill : Will you puh-LEASE stay on topic?  davidk14: . Colin, You are being such a silly willy. I can or can not, you can or can not condemn anything printed which represents a book of words supposedly written thousands of years ago. Point being, do I condone or condemn the story of Jonah and the Whale as an actual happening? No.....of course not. Can you condone or condemn that Jesus rose from the dead? Can you condone or not condone that story? Of course you can't. You are asking me a question that I can not condone or condemn since I do not know to believe or not. Some stories in the bible are just that....stories written by men when the world was flat and the sun revolved around the earth. Your attempt to paint me into a corner was childish using a childish question. But thanks for playin  . CoIin: David This is so obvious that it shouldn't need explaining....sigh When someone asks you -- "Do you condone or condemn such-and-such an act?" -- they are not asking you whether you BELIEVE THIS ACT HAPPENED. They are asking you whether you BELIEVE THE ACT IS DESERVING OF PRAISE OR BLAME. What is under examination is a PRINCIPLE -- the morality or immorality of a particular action -- regardless of whether or not that action has actually occurred. I didn't ask you about Jonah and the whale or Jesus rising from the dead, neither of which has the slightest bearing on morality as far as I can see. I didn't ask you to condone or condemn the elliptical orbits of the planets either. If you wanted fictional homilies, you might at least have chosen Aesop's Fables. We can condone or condemn the Boy Who Cried Wolf without committing to a belief in the factuality of the account. I personally believe the stories in the Hebrew Bible to be, by and large, nothing more than that -- stories. Clearly, there are many people -- YOUR people -- who feel otherwise, and more to the point, look to that book of horrors for moral guidance. You continue to dance around the question. And my respect for you with your "Our-Murder-Is-Ok-Theirs-Isn't" double standard and hypocrisy continues to plummet. (Edited by CoIin) CoIin: And by the very same reasoning, if I saw a movie, for example, which contained comments of blatant and gratuitous anti-Semitism, I would be fast to condemn it, as I hope we all would be. But by David's reasoning there is nothing to condone or condemn because HE'S NOT SURE WHETHER IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED OR NOT.   calybonos: I for one, have had it up to here with the persecution of my fellow porcine people. But do we get a thread?.......nooooooooo. Outbackjack: Anyhow back on topic.Lets look at the craziness going on in Israel: The prime minister’s bill to bar the Palestinian flag as an “enemy” flag. A Palestinian parliamentarian was dragged out after calling Moshe Feiglin a “fascist. There’s that Avigdor Lieberman “peace plan” that has just one idea: pay Palestinians to leave Israel. Deport Palestinian Israelis ACCUSED of crimes to Gaza. There’s the new bill to declare Israel the “nation state of the Jewish people,” which would demote Arabic from being an official language so that the 20 percent non-Jewish population don’t get any ideas that this is their country, too. The bill would formally define Israel as “belonging to Jews around the world” and “make ‘Jewish tradition’ and ‘the prophets of Israel’ a primary source of legal and judicial authority” Bookburnings???? Yes I would say Israel is going crazy.  slasian: My fear is that it is not the Israeli Government that goes crazy but we the rest of the nations that fail to see this madness. If such atrocities were commuted by Iran, Sudan or Nicaragua, will not our leaders heist to act upon it? We can all see that US had waged war for less crimes on other nations let alone Economic Sanction. When it comes to Israel, US's (and her allies) will to protect Democracy, human right and the American way, vanish faster than Bolt in the 400 meter track-race. I thought they where champions of humanity and that it doesn't matter who is the tyrant. Imagine any other nation bombing a UN shelter and brag about it emm not even an official excuse. Colin, it has no use to ask David such questions, he is a miracle of science that humans can sometimes live with complete lack of conscious mind whilst they are active. (eating, farting and shagging)  I remember discussing this in one of my threads about the genocide advised by the Jewish god and all the nations in that area that were annihilated. David called me anti-semite, funny thing is I am more Semite than he is. David will not condemn the injustice of the present day massacre in Gaza, he will not even admit that those people are causalities of war. He even stated in my thread that they deserve to die and no one should head their misfortune. I once asked him what terrorism means and he snapped anything involving the murdering of the innocents, and civilians in the name freedom. (I also agree with his canon) Then I asked him where he stand on the action of Lehi? (the Israeli terrorist organization in 1940s). He told me history remembers their action in different way. Why would history remember the terrorism of Jews in different way than a Palestinians? Unless the one remembering it has a serious brain damage An act of terrorism has to be condemned regardless of who the terrorist is!This madness mentioned by Outback is a grieve matter. Any observer can already sense that their is a new and stronger anti-Semite feeling rising all over the globe. This is the fault of the other nations; Israeli government should have been dealt properly years ago, now the hatred is spreading and I am not comfortable with it. Now the Israeli government has become the emblem of the Jewish race which is a great loss for every Jew either in the Promise land or else where. Edit= I am afraid I will be called the Nazi sympathizer for condemning: the Nazis for slaughtered all those Jews the Palestinians for launching rockets to civilian areas and the Government of Israeli for killing thousands and thousands of Palestinians in the name of self defense. Well  (Edited by slasian) davidk14: . Slasian said: David will not condemn the injustice of the present day massacre in Gaza, he will not even admit that those people are causalities of war. He even stated in my thread that they deserve to die and no one should head their misfortune. David responds: You intentionally are lying. First of all...there is no massacre in Gaza. That is a blatant lie. Hamas attacked...Israel defended. Second...admit there is loss of life?...of course. By the hands of Hamas. Murder int he first degree. Third....I never stated that Palestinean civilians deserve to die. Hamas deserve to die as did Bin Laden. Fourth...I never said that no one should heed their misfortune. So you are four for four on the lies...IN THAT ONE PARAGRAPH Hamas is a murdering bunch of cutthroats. You support Hamas....therefore,,,,you deserve each other. Slasian said: David called me anti-semite, funny thing is I am more Semite than he is. David responds: Let me be perfectly clear....You are a Jew hater. Slasian said: "...I am afraid I will be called the Nazi sympathizer..." David responds: Don't be afraid. Just admit that you support Hamas. PS. To all of you Hamas sympathizers... You support the murder and genocide of the Jewish people. There is no debate about this. It is a fact that Hamas supports and is striving for the genocide of the Jewish people. They have said it, they are practicing it...and if you support Hamas...you support genocide. There is no defense for you nor even a argument. Anyonbe that supports Hamas.....you are a terrorist. It is Hamas that is causing the deaths of innocents...on both sides. You don't like these truths....tough . . Outbackjack: I support the U.N resolutions being enforced and Israel withdrawing to pre 1967 borders.  AussieOi: So in answer to the thread question well......Yes. Elements in Israel can be a bit crazy but not the whole of Israel I'd deem. The crazies seem to be quite nicely balanced with crazies on the other side at the moment. Probably only for the moment in this state of flux. Oh and by the way there'd be a lot more of them on the other side if you did a count, since well, the population of anti-semites is quite large. Easily over 14 million. slasian:  to david. Colin, you know a lie could sometimes be an intentional. Let’s say, davidk did not know that the government of Israeli is one of the very well know terrorist state. (The very act of Mossad’s assassin murdering the suspects of the Black September attack without court procedures is terrorism and if you recall they had slaughtered an innocent waitress in the process and no one even bothered to brought the matter to international court. Now since davik didn’t know that Mossad’s assassin murder suspects including innocents, he say “the government of Israel is not a terrorist state”. This doesn’t mean that david is lying, but he is misinformed hence he is wrong. So the intentional lie is different from the unintentional one. Yet, in actuality, davidk knows that the government of Israel deliberately kills thousands of non-combatants each year. He knows that the government of Israeli is not capable of practicing democracy because it is a Jewish state founded on Judaism, which is not secular at all, and any non-secular government cannot be called a democratic one. This makes davidk a filth Pathological Liar. Edit= Have you noticed how artistically duck down at the real question? Isn’t an act of terrorism killing non-combatants deliberately? Didn’t Lehi, the Israeli independent organization, deliberately killed non-combatants, didn’t it then fighter, Yitzhak Shamir, who become the prime minister of Israel in the 1080s) defend terrorism as a legitimate means of fighting? Didn’t the present day government kills, annually, 70times more non-combatant than Hamas? “So it was more efficient and more moral to go for selected targets. In any case, it was the only way we could operate, because we were so small. For us it was not a question of the professional honor of a soldier, it was the question of an idea, an aim that had to be achieved. We were aiming at a political goal. There are many examples of what we did to be found in the Bible – Gideon and Samson, for instance”.— Yitzhak Sahmir’s argument for the legitimacy of Lehi's actions. Colin, now you see the attitude of the Israeli government? The genocides committed in the old testament, let alone condemning, them they are the perfect lesson for how the Israeli government should act against its ‘enemy’. Davidk will never condemn it as an act of injustice, he believes it is absolutely perfect and no one should heed the people that suffer such atrocities. The pathological liar, davidk, accused me of being Nazi sympathizers ehm in truth his beloved Lehi In December 1940, even contacted Germany with a proposal to aid German conquest in the Middle East in return for recognition of a Jewish state open to unlimited immigration. Here is also a statement from Lehi in an article titled "Terror" in the Lehi underground newspaper He Khazit (The Front) “Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat. We are very far from having any moral qualms as far as our national war goes. We have before us the command of the Torah, whose morality surpasses that of any other body of laws in the world: "Ye shall blot them out to the last man." But first and foremost, terrorism is for us a part of the political battle being conducted under the present circumstances, and it has a great part to play: speaking in a clear voice to the whole world, as well as to our wretched brethren outside this land, it proclaims our war against the occupier. We are particularly far from this sort of hesitation in regard to an enemy whose moral perversion is admitted by all”. You can find all this in wiki. But the pathological liar aka dud says History remembers Lehi in a different way. A to the scientist that created such a perfect man with a donkey brain. (Edited by slasian) davidk14: . And another incoherent rambling from Slasian especially since Slasian will not condemn Hamas as an organization created for one specific purpose....To eliminate the Jews. Jack said: I support the U.N resolutions being enforced and Israel withdrawing to pre 1967 borders. David responds: Now that I could negotiate. However, only if Hamas is disarmed. I have always said, once Hamas is disarmed and the PA is recognized as the soul legitimate and the only representative of the Palestinian people, then there could be partners in finding a decent peace agreement where the Palestinians and Israeli's could exist in two separate states side by side...through negotiations. . . . CoIin: Slasian's posts are anything but incoherent. He's one of the most intelligent members I've had the pleasure to encounter here on Wireclub. (Although I can't condone the name-calling, Snakey -- both by yourself and others. A man of your sophistication has no need for that  )David, on the other hand, your posts -- on Israel-related topics anyway -- are, by and large, embarrassingly shallow, poorly thought out, and rather egregiously biased. @ Slasian -- Hmm, I'm not sure there can be such a thing as an "unintentional lie", but that would be a topic (a good one ) for another day. Briefly though, I'd point out that the word "lying" and its cognates are widely abused here on Wire. The giving of false information must not be equated with lying. The person who tells us Tokyo is the capital of France, and believes it too, is not lying. Sorry for the digression, OutbackJack. Back on topic... davidk14: . It's unfortunate that you feel that way Colin. Those that support Hamas and who condone the genocide of Jews have earned a special place in Hell. If you seriously feel that Salsian who supports Hamas is 'coherent' and one of the most intelligent members of wireclub, you need your head examined. Never again will Jews stand still and let those who support and commit genocide of Jews do so without a fight. Hamas knows this. You know this. You know that Hamas puts Palestinian non-combatants in harms way so as to create collateral damage. Those that support Hamas support intentionally creating collateral deaths of Palestinians. So, in a nut shell, you in effect support the murder of Jews. Or... Make a statement that Hamas is a terrorist organization who's sole purpose to exist is to eliminate by genocide, the Jewish people. If you can not make that statement...you support the genocide of the Jews. If you do not make that statement....(here it comes)...you are no better than the Nazi's who trained the leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood...who created Hamas. . . . CoIin: Another disturbing element to your debating technique, David, is your frequent adoption of the so-called "straw man" -- a deliberate and insidious distortion of your opponent's position, which you then attack. You're the man who constructs effigies of Mike Tyson and then proceeds to give him a jolly sound thrashing. Not very brave of you, David.  You repeatedly suggest that myself, and/or other posters support or sympathize with Hamas. I for one certainly do not. Other members will have to speak for themselves. Your misrepresenting me as such is shockingly dishonest. Don't do it again, please. davidk14: . You ask that I not misrepresent you yet you state I construct effigies of Mike Tyson the rapist? Seriously? And that is a pure misrepresentation. Perhaps you should take a good long look in the mirror pal. You still have not stated you are against the genocide of the Jewish people and denounce Hamas for causing the turmoil asked in my previous post. But then...no responses as of yet. So hold the criticism of me. Someone much smarter than all of us combined stated this..."All compromise is based on give and take, but there can be no give and take on fundamentals. Any compromise on mere fundamentals is surrender. For it is all give and no take." I refuse as most people, to compromise with those that believe Hamas represents the Palestinian People. They do not. This same person said, "...First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." I win. . . . | Politics Chat Room 36 People Chatting Similar Conversations |
