Ex-cop murders theatregoer....isn't it nice that we let people carry guns around? (Page 12)

davesdatahut
davesdatahut: And some try to grow trees from thin air.
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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: >>>But you have presented nothing about the mass killings, which are almost ALL committed by deranged people.

Bold claim- something you've yet to back up with any evidence.

>>>You can have a generally calm overall set of mentally ill people, with a subset that can be extremely violent.

And the same is true for the general population- there is a large group of generally calm overall, with a subset of people that can be extremely violent.

The only difference is, the general population is by far more violent, and there is a higher population of them.

So why you using mentally ill people as a scapegoat?

>>>If you can, state them

So you can dismiss what I say again? No, you made the extraordinary claim, the burden of proof is on your shoulders, not mine. Prove EVERY SINGLE mass murder is caused by the mentally ill

>>>I will clarify. When I said nuts and kooks, I thought it was clear what I was implying.

Haha It's funny watching you back peddle.

You made blanket statements about the mentally ill- don't try to change what you said.

I don't care about what you meant to write- I care about what was written. And what was written was deplorable and shameful.

>>>One more scenario:

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davidk14
davidk14: .

No sane person walks into a movie theater and opens fire.

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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Lipton, see what DavidK says. I disagree with David on a lotta things...but, as he correctly notes, NO sane person blows away strangers in a public place. NONE.
Now...about those questions I asked you in those various scenarios about who should and should not have a gun. What's your view on them?
If you wanna get hung up on how I describe the mentally ill, I can't do anything about that. Feel free to riff away on that if you like. But it isn't particularly germane to the question about whether they should have guns.
(Edited by davesdatahut)
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davidk14
davidk14: .
You disagree with me on a lot of things ???



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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: >>>NO sane person blows away strangers in a public place. NONE.

Well then, it seems only the mentally ill are murderers. Lets lock 'em all up! Otherwise, they're gunna get us all!
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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: I'm not going to bother answering your nonsense scenarios because they are just that- nonsense, based on fear, ignorance, and assumptions that the mentally ill are out to kill you. It's a stupid waste of time, based entirely on generalizations of people who range from all ages, sexes, creeds, beliefs, upraising, and apply to 1/4 of the population. Even the terms and afflictions you've used to define them- delusional thinking, paranoia, hallucinations or schizophrenia- are vastly different from person to person.

Let me ask you something though- should your laws pass, and the mentally ill are continued to be unfairly treated with fear and segregated and kept under the boot of society- why would anyone attempt to find help under such a climate? It seems to be entirely in a persons best interests to remain ill.
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morning_glorie
(Post deleted by morning_glorie 9 years ago)
davesdatahut
davesdatahut: As you wish Lipton. They are all legit questions. I suspect you won't answer them because it will require you to make a serious choice on the issue. As you wish. It is your call. But remember these scenarios when you seek to arm every citizen in your community.
To answer your question, I do not see how preventing seriously mentally ill people for having guns puts them or keeps them under society's boot. On the contrary, it protects society, and probably these individuals as well. And again, I refer only to the seriously mentally ill as I have noted. Not those with mild conditions.
Now...what are your answers to my questions? Or do you wish to keep sidestepping them?
(Edited by davesdatahut)
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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: >>> I suspect you won't answer them because it will require you to make a serious choice on the issue.

Don't put words in my mouth- I've already explained why I won't answer them- because they are bigoted questions, with no actual consideration of the people who they are supposedly about.

>>>To answer your question, I do not see how preventing seriously mentally ill people for having guns puts them or keeps them under society's boot.

Denying a minority group the right to defend themselves because you're CERTAIN they're out to kill you is absolutely putting them under your boot. It's opposed by all facts on the subject and a conclusion based on fear, not facts.

>>>And again, I refer only to the seriously mentally ill as I have noted.

Still a generalization. Still a worthless stance that ignores the vast differences of the people that will be affected.

>>>what are your answers to my questions? Or do you wish to keep sidestepping them?

Haha I'll stop side-stepping the moment you stop side-stepping my questions about the mentally ill- is there any evidence, at all, that the mentally ill, serious or minor, hold a greater threat on society than the mentally sound?
(Edited by LiptonCambell)
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Morning, is it ignorant to say that mass killings are committed by the mentally ill? Or is it ignorant to suggest that some people have no business having guns because indeed they have shown violent tendencies or may indeed be seriously mentally ill? What's your view? And when you encounter someone in your community who you are concerned may be really ill AND might have a gun, whaddaya think? Are you ok with that? Ask your local cops what they think.
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Ok, Lipton, as you wish. You are free to avoid the questions. Or do I gather, from your words, that you would indeed give guns to all the people in those scenarios. Is that a yes? Or will you still not say so?
On your question, I already agreed that the mentally - as a whole - pose no greater threat to society than others. Except - EXCEPT - when you get to the seriously mentally ill - psychotic, paranoid, delusional, hallucinogenic, schizophrenic. Then, yes, they do pose a greater threat WHEN THEY HAVE A GUN IN THEIR POSSESSION. It doesn't mean they WILL cause harm. It means they are a greater threat. And for this reason, I say they should not have guns.
I gather you think they should. To that, I say, go ahead....hand out the guns. The more the merrier. In YOUR town. Not mine.
(Edited by davesdatahut)
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: As a coda to this, I am fully behind what DavidK said...to provide FAR more funding and resources to treat the mentally ill, for the lack of these resources is a great shame on our society.
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morning_glorie
morning_glorie: lipton you are so right on everything....maybe its the ones who are conjuring up these ignorant fear based assumptions about the mentally ill who really have the problems and perhaps they are the ones who really are the ones thinking about killing people.
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davidk14
davidk14: .

As a youth around 13, I was in the SF Chapter of the American Red Cross. I was in my junior high school as the associate. I would go to a meeting with other kids from around the city and we would discuss helping those that can not help themselves. At 14, I went to a leadership development camp for two weeks. One one occasion, we visited the Napa State Hospital in California. We were there for a few hours and visited with many patients from young to old. With physical limitations to none. When we left, not a dry eye. I remember that day very clearly.

Point being. Those facilities and other facilities that deal with the mentally ill are less and less with less dollars being spent than 20 years ago. Many patients are turned out into the streets for lack of funding. Families....have turned their own out on the streets (using the courts / police system to get them out of the house) because they can not handle them.

There are crazies out their and the police are the thin blue line. Next time you see a cop, thank them. They deal with the crazy ever day.

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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Well said, David. But you may catch hell here for calling them crazies.
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morning_glorie
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davidk14
davidk14: .

There are people that are mentally ill and then there are the crazies. It's the crazies you need to be careful of.

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(Edited by davidk14)
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Exactly the point I've been trying to push here. But the use of the terms kooks and nuts or crazies has apparently been seized upon as a way to hijack the conversation and avoid the real issue.
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morning_glorie
morning_glorie: wrong again dave ....to refer to the precious people in our society with mental illness as nuts and cooks is just disgusting and i think i have addressed the issue well as has dave, lori, and lipton, and they have done well and thats all i have to say.
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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: >>> to hijack the conversation and avoid the real issue.

The real issue, apparently, is that people with mental disabilities are all out to kill you.
(Edited by LiptonCambell)
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Morning and Lipton....how about referring to them as crazies? You ok with that?
I'm not going to let this debate go sideways and I certainly don't suggest you go after that with verbal guns blazing, but.....silence on this one? No thoughts? Just curious.
(Edited by davesdatahut)
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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: It really shows ignorance and refusal to understand on your part if you think that, by us demanding you don't reduce an extremely complex issue involving people from all walks of life to stereotypes, that you think our only problem with what you have to say is the titles you're using.

It's like a bigot who thinks if they start using the word "homosexuals" rather than "faggots", they somehow give their hate speech a greater level of sophistication.

my problem isn't how you're describing the mentally ill- my problem is you're portraying them as blood-thirsty monsters who are out to kill us all- when all the facts show that the opposite is true, and they are far more often the victims than the perpetrators.

You keep claiming you're referring to those who are more mentally ill- but just like your initial flawed conclusion, you don't have the research backing up your claims- you just assume that it's gotta be true, and think that people should be segregated and denied rights based on those assumptions.
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Yes, Lipton and Morning, I didn't think you'd call out the use of the term crazies. Why is that? Perhaps because David sides more with you, in general, on gun issues?
I take your answer as a sign that your view on my use of the term nuts and kooks, without taking note of the term crazies, is nothing more than a distraction and a red herring. Wriggle as you might, I'm not letting you get away with that.
And, me thinks you doth protest way too much. At no point did I come close to portraying the mentally ill as blood-thirsty monsters and you know it. I have noted, correctly, that mass killings are the work of severely mentally ill people and, for those and other reasons, they should not have access to guns....and I stand by that full stop.

Now, more on the real issue at hand here....
As it seems you object to my suggestions that the severely mentally ill not have access to guns, and that you advocate more guns as the pathway to safety, let's take this out to its logical conclusion and re-visit an earlier suggestion of mine. That would be the idea of ensuring that all adults in your community have at least one gun.
If you really think that arming more adults is the answer, how bout you petition your local governing body to set up a program to give every adult in your town a gun. Perhaps you could even get funding from the National Rifle Association to pay for it and hold a Give Out The Guns Day!
Excellent idea.
Everyone with a pulse and proof they are an adult gets a gun, in the name of community safety. Tall people, small people. Thin ones, fat ones. Nasty ones. Nice ones. Sane ones and crazy ones. Everyone gets a gun. Ain't got no scratch to buy one? The town will give you one AND and free training in how to use it. All in the name of safety!
Maybe you're the guy whose been running around talking paranoia about rubbing out a few of them government leaders who wanna raise taxes? Not a problem. Here, have a gun. The free training starts tomorrow.
Been having delusions lately that you're the messiah and you need to take out the bad people in town with a couple well-placed shots? No problem. Have a gun!
Been hearing voices in your head tellin you to kill your ma and kill your pa? Nooooo problem! Have a gun.
Been smackin around your wife and kids? Yes....have a gun.
Whaddaya think, Lipton? How bout you, Morning? How's that sit with you? Wanna give that a try?
Or maybe more guns for everyone is really not such a good idea after all?
(Edited by davesdatahut)
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davidk14
davidk14: .

There are the mentally ill or mentally handicapped in our society.


Then....

There are the crazies that want to kill you, rape you, cut you up and have an evening BBQ and you as the main course.

There are the crazies that murder their children, spouses and then turn the gun on themselves.

There are the crazies that place their child in the microwave and cook them because a voice in their head told them to do it.

There are the crazies that....



And the crazy parade just keeps movin' along.

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Now some of these crazies have been already identified with extreme mental illness and have been labeled a threat to humanity. However, they have done nothing wrong...yet...so...they are just considered mentally ill until they completely loose all sense of reality and become....

crazy.

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