Income and education gap for southern states bad and getting worse

davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Some updated census figures show the continued and huge education and income gaps between southern and northern states. Below are new numbers from the Census Bureau from 2012. What, if anything, is or should be done to close this yawning gap? And why do we hear so little about this in the southern political campaigns, which seem to be all about god, Christianity, repealing Obamacare and rolling back the very government spending that can help their schools?
It is further worth noting that, while the lower-education states are showing increases in the percentage of people with college degrees, those increases are smaller than what's being seen in higher-educated states. This does not bode well for the income disparity gap.

States with the lowest percentage of adults with college degrees:
West Virginia - 18.6 %
Mississippi - 20.7 %
Arkansas - 21.0 %
Kentucky - 21.8 %
Louisiana - 22.0 %
The bottom 10 also includes Alabama, Oklahoma and Tennesee.
States at the top.The numbers are nearly double:
Massachusetts - 39.3%
Colorado - 37.5 %
Connecticut - 37.1%
Maryland - 36.9 %
New Jersey - 36.2%
The top 10 also includes Vermont, New Hampshire, New York and Minnesota
This matches closely with the states having the lowest median household incomes:
Mississippi - $37,095
Arkansas - $40,112
West Virginia - $40,196
Alabama - $41,574
Kentucky - $41,724
The bottom 10 also includes Tennesee, Louisiana, South Carolina and Oklahoma
The top 5 are more than 50 % higher. The gap is huge:
Maryland - $71,222
New Jersey - $69,667
Alaska - $67,712
Connecticut - $67,276
Hawaii - $66,259
The top 10 also includes Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Minnesota and Delaware.
(Edited by davesdatahut)
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chronology
chronology: It would be interesting to know how these figures were assessed. One of the real drawbacks in assessing an 'average wage' for an town is that the wages in total for that town are broken down and divided among workers in general. For example, let's say there are ten Guys in New York, two are bankers with a million dollar salary each, and eight are gardeners who earn 20.000 dollars a year, the average salary for New York would be 200.000 dollars, which is preposterous when you consider this. This is how they asses average wages in England, they say the average is something like 50.000 dollars a year, completely absurd as most people in England earn nowhere near half that amount. Another factor is cost of living, it costs a lot less to live in Mississippi than Los Angeles. Interesting thread tho, let's hope the Federal Minimum wage is raised, this will help all States, not just Dixie.
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Hello Chron, The data I put in my post is the 'median' household income, which is the midpoint of all the incomes in each state. As you correctly point out, averages can distort things in a big way, so it's best to use medians, which give the incomes of the most typical households in each state. No numbers are perfect, of course. But those figures are the best measures of income disparities.
As for the cost of living, yes for sure it costs less to live in most of the southern states - indeed in most states not on the east or west coasts, so those incomes do go further in the interior regions. But the larger and key point is the very large and troubling gap between southern states and the rest of the country and how little of that is being discussed in any political spheres.
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the real slim DEEPy
the real slim DEEPy: perhaps if unions didnt sue industries for attempting to move plants to right to work states, they would not be impoverished
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: The unions, while necessary, manage to shoot themselves in the feet on a regular basis. But I'm not sure what the connection is between your comment and the income gap noted in the thread. Can you elaborate?
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the real slim DEEPy
the real slim DEEPy: that statement is self-explanatory.

boeing (the us's biggest export manufacturer) was sued by the workers union for closing an obsolete 747 plant on the west coast (thus, laying of union workers), only to build a new plant, suitable to build the new 767 plant in the bible belt (thus hiring non-union workers)- as the business approval process in the south is much cheaper, quicker, and easier than in highly bureaucratic, and overly-regulated liberal areas.


not only are businesses cheaper and easier to build in less regulated, non-union areas, the cost of living is also 12% lower in non union areas, vs fully unionized areas.

true that the union workers earn, on average, 17% higher wages than their non-union analogs; however, after cost of living adjustments, that 17% is actually only 5% higher wages, which is darn close to a union due. additionally, those on fixed wages (minimum, disability, welfare and/or retirement) see a 12% increase in basic needs, and, thus the poor are 12% poorer, unless those union areas compensate by increasing such fixed incomes, accordingly.

for an extreme example, new york city has 3x average rent/home costs than richmond, va (the most liberal right-to-work area), due to over-market-value wages collectively extorted by union cartel tactics, and said unearned wage increases are spend rather carelessly by the workers (since money is valued to a person by how hard that person had to work for it). the excess spending in the localized economy causes said 12% average localized inflation.

the minimum wage in nyc and richmond are BOTH $7.35 an hour; while welfare is increase approx 3x- making welfare abuse a far wealthier occupation than entry-level jobs. said uneared entitlements are, again, spent rather carelessly, leading to localized inflation, which hurts entry level laborers, disability and retirement recipients by 3 fold , only to benefit the union workers enough to pay union dues, and keeping welfare recipients at the same effective poverty level as their virginia counterparts- while giving the illusion(from the massive amount of cost-adjusted welfare recipients) that the income gap is so HUGE, when it is all just really a game of ratios, gubt hand-outs and inflation.
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the real slim DEEPy
the real slim DEEPy: the two economic theories that can be used to explain the localized inflation is limited supply and high demand, and/or the expansion of the money supply- both of which are known to cause inflation.
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying here, but it sounds like you argue that the gaps are largely illusory and not really very real. I'm not sure I buy that because all you have cited are welfare people and union workers, who don't represent a majority of people in the south or in other areas.
The key would seem to be the education gap, which leads to big differences in job opportunities and income potential.
(Edited by davesdatahut)
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the real slim DEEPy
the real slim DEEPy: it sounds like you know nothing about economics, and need not be in a thread about economics.

specifically, to the education protion of the initial post,public education is funded by property values, which are lower in less crowded areas- per supply and demand,

college is equally expensive across all non ivy/mit/berkley areas(where it is more expensive, but worth it), becausethe ease of student loan qualifications increases demand for college. and credit does not take into account all the costs of living in the approval process, making it harder for low wage-low cost area parents to reflect their lower food, transportation and tax burden costs.
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the real slim DEEPy
the real slim DEEPy: statistics are misleading without extrapolation, that is my point. notice texas, the most conservative, even, liberterian, state, isnt on any or the top or bottom 5 lists. if conservatism causes poverty and low education, explain the anomoly of texas. i would suggest a reading of "the wealth of nations
" followed by some texts on lord keynes, for an intro intro macroeconomics, followed by a brief study of the monetism, practiced by bernake, then culminating with a reading of "the road to slavery", and then, when you have this tiny basic understanding o the fundamentals of economics, you may be able to prepare an informed response, instead of stating that you just dont understand anything...
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: If you wish to insult the intelligence of posters here by making condescending remarks about their knowledge base, we can conclude this chat now. Those types of comments are unnecessary.
For the record, I have extensive knowledge of economics.
Should you wish to continue without the sneering, let me know.

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the real slim DEEPy
the real slim DEEPy: i am not insulting- you are toe one who kept saying you didnt understandand you have offered no logical response to any of my explanations, other than that you didnt understand them.

if you dont understand, am I stupid?

what about the anomaly of texas, you havent explained that one. you havent stated any rational response, just, huh? i dont understand...
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: quoting you:
"it sounds like you know nothing about economics, and need not be in a thread about economics."
and
"when you have this tiny basic understanding o the fundamentals of economics, you may be able to prepare an informed response,"
As noted, when you are prepared to discuss, without sneering condescension, you will get an engaged and informed response in return.
(Edited by davesdatahut)
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the real slim DEEPy
the real slim DEEPy: uum, if you mean, ad hominem, that would be a static state, an attack to character as in "you are retarded" :you are insane" "you are a fascist" thus, your information is wrong. not, you dont seem to understand economics, please study and come back. that does not attack your character, it indicates your lack of expressing pertinent data to an economic thread. having a poor understanding of aconomics is not an insult, since even economists barely understand it. expressing no authority on economics in your own words is NOT a FLAW of CHARACTER, , it is actually above-average...

your claim of ad hominem is a red herring, try a real argument
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the real slim DEEPy
the real slim DEEPy: how bout this, back to the origional post, i simply state, *ad cum ergo hoc", there, done. you are smart, im sure you understand- your initial post implies a fallacy, in itself.
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: My initial post implies no fallacy it all. It connects education with income, based on a basic truism in our economy that better education leads to better employment opportunities and higher income. States with higher levels of education are, with almost no exceptions, states with the highest household incomes. The connection is not simply circular reasoning or ad cum ergo hoc, Southern states have the worst education rates and lowest incomes. (as an aside, i never mentioned 'conservative' states in my original post. while conservatives states do generally have these problems, there are conservative states that are both well educated and relatively wealthy. in my initial post, i highlighted south vs elsewhere, )
The question is why this is and how can these gaps be narrowed?
As for Texas, it pops out in the bottom 10 to 15 for both incomes and educational levels. I can check the actual data for the exact numbers.
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the real slim DEEPy
the real slim DEEPy: umm, its a causational fallacy, correlation is NOT causation. good job at finally presenting a logical argument, but its still a causational fallacy.
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Are you saying that higher education is not highly correlated with higher income?
Statistically, it's an almost perfect linear correlation, with almost no margin of error. Certainly there are other factors connected, but the connection between income and education is profound. Or perhaps you have other data that debunks this...and therefore this is not an issue worth discussing?
(Edited by davesdatahut)
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the real slim DEEPy
the real slim DEEPy: i am saying that the suggestion that correlation is causation is a ***causational fallacy*** oversimplification.

pretending like there are no other factors.
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Of course there are other factors. Nothing in economics is perfectly black and white. But a regression analysis will show that the correlations are very strong. Capitalism has shown quite clearly that it values education and rewards it with wealth. More than just casually, but strongly.
So, accepting that, should we, as a society try to do something about these gaps? Are they indeed unacceptable? Or should they be left alone and should it be accepted that the south will remain undereducated and relatively poor, while the rest of the country outpaces it?
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the real slim DEEPy
the real slim DEEPy: education creates wealth, or wealth creates education?

and what of this statement "And why do we hear so little about this in the southern political campaigns, which seem to be all about god, Christianity, repealing Obamacare and rolling back the very government spending that can help their schools?"

if you are tying both education and wealth to an extreme conservative political platform, then why isnt texas at the bottom of all lists?
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the real slim DEEPy
the real slim DEEPy: does this statement mean that we have to buy health insurance,tax more and denounce religion to gain wealth and education? texas has NO state income tax, shouldnt it be at the bottlm in all areas? why, or why not?
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chronology
chronology: dave. An important factor in a Region improving the standard of living of it's community is to attract Industries that can provide relatively high wages for workers. Service Industry wages such as Hotels, Shops, Fast Food places etc, just do not have the resources to pay above average wages and fringe benefits. Auto, Electronics, Computing, Banking and Insurance etc generally can provide reasonable wages and benefits.

Actually the South has done a brilliant job in repairing it's image after the 60s Civil Rights era that presented a challenging environment for Southern Business trying trade with Business Partners and customers who were watching Demonstrators being beaten by Police and water cannons on their TV News.

The South has put those days behind them and no one today is put off dealing with any Southern Business or Town by negative News. But just look at Detroit. Most of it's industries are in China, it is not just the South that has problems attracting industrial factories, so does Michigan. The South is becoming home to some big hitting Business names.
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the real slim DEEPy
the real slim DEEPy: the correlation is strong in you, my padewan
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davesdatahut
davesdatahut: Deeply devious, ooh great seer and professor, you should know that highlighting the exception - Texas - does not negate the rule. Or in this case, the strong correlations in ALL the other southern states except Virginia, which benefits from....the high education and wealth associated with being next to Washington, DC!
The lack of correlation is only in your head, my recalcitrant foil.
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the real slim DEEPy
the real slim DEEPy: correlation is NOT causation
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