California gives non-citizens ability to serve on juries (Page 2)

one_two_x_u: No, I'm from England which I don't think is too far removed from American law. Regardless of what kind of law I live under, I (try) to live by fairness, logic, rationality and morality.

OCD_OCD: In the United States, our laws are based on the US Constitution and only citizens of the United States can sit on a jury. What your personal motto or morality is isn't something that comes into play legally.

Wild__: Only out here on the left coast. SMH

one_two_x_u: I understand that, but why is that so important? Surely a little common sense is much better than a list of made up rules? I personally see no difference in letting US citizens and non-US citizens be on a jury. Everyone has their own way of seeing things, of thinking about things, etc.. and since citizenship is little more than where you live, in made up countries with made up boarders created by man, why should it make sure a difference?

Like, why is it so important to you that it MUST follow the Constitution? Surely rules should change according to what makes the most sense, not what is set on a piece of paper.

I just want to know why you think that's so important. I don't want to dismiss what you think, not at all. Just curious to understand because to me it shouldn't really matter whether someone is a US citizen or not.

If it were up to me people on jury duty would have to take some kind of intelligence and morality test. I wouldn't want some incompetent psycho on my jury, regardless of their citizenship!

one_two_x_u: *make such a difference..not 'sure a difference'...typing too fast.

Wild__: Why should an illegal immigrant be allowed to serve on a jury when they are breaking the law by being here?

Wild__:
one_two-x_u says: Like, why is it so important to you that it MUST follow the Constitution? Surely rules should change according to what makes the most sense, not what is set on a piece of paper.

And I respond: The Constitution is the foundation of the law of the land, without it we would have anarchy.

one_two_x_u: But they aren't necessarily illegal if they are a non-citizen. I could live in the states for 3 months a year and be there legally.

Besides, that is the whole issue. Immigration should not be a crime. If you want to go to a country you should be free to do so, especially if you are escaping famine, war, a high risk of death. Boarders and countries aren't real things. They are just lines drawn on a map. People should have the right to be where they want and live where they want. Illegal immigrants aren't criminals. They are simply victims of an old rule that fails to fairly and morally consider their situation. Being born somewhere does not give you some right to disregard other human beings because they were born somewhere else. How does that make any rational sense? We are all humans at the end of the day. If you had to leave your country for your survival, to make something of your life, would you not expect and want other human beings, regardless of citizenship, to allow you to be able to help yourself? There needs to be a greater consideration for the world as a whole. This whole "us" vs "them" thing is .. well. despicable.

There would not necessarily be anarchy. I think that's a little extreme to believe that humans are so naive and so incompetent that they need to live their life according to a piece of paper. Look at animals in the wild, they live and survive without the need for such rules. In fact, animals who live within hierarchical tribes with strongly ingrained social rules (like baboons) have often been found to die of stress and are often the ones who commit murder within their own species.

Humans have survived and lived just as well, if not better, without the need for the constitution.

one_two_x_u: Besides, most great countries are founded on immigrants. Look at America. The original Americans were the native Americans. Then immigrants from Spain, Italy, England, Ireland to name but a few, came over, killed them all, took their land and called it home.

.... America as you know it would not exist without immigration, so how can you be against it!?

OCD_OCD: No one is against legal immigration. Illegal immigration is another matter. Illegal immigrants have no right to be in the US, nor do they have a right to sit on a jury. Period.

Chad_: SO why dont we just give the FELONS that lost there right to sit on a jury come sit back on the jury????? Makes just as much sense right?

Chad_: Why would I sit on a jury in Italy, England, Ireland, Turkey, Iran, Japan, China, or anyother country I am not a citizen or know of, or have lived under their governing laws.

A country that cuts a hand off for a person that steals is not the same punishment of that of the same crime here in the .

one_two_x_u: Well it doesn't even say they will be illegal immigrants! There will most likely be something in place to prevent that from happening anyway, or they will get found out and sent packing! And even if they are, who really cares! They aren't hardened criminals. They just want to live in a country that's better for their needs, what is so wrong with that!? It's a compliment to the country. If a felon has committed murder, in my eyes they must be mentally ill. So they are unfit to serve. If someone is trying to stay in a certain country they are just simply doing what they see fit. They aren't harming anyone or putting lives at risk. There is a huge difference. You would assume, and hope, that if someone is in jail it's for the right reasons. Because they pose a threat to people, to the country etc.. not because they are doing the only thing they can to survive.

Well why not sit on their jury? Surely you have a little common sense, a sense of right and wrong. Your job would not be to decide the punishment but simply whether the individual is guilty or not. It really makes no difference at all!

Most of the world has the same, or very similar, laws. Murder is murder, theft is theft, etc etc.. it's the same all over the world. Besides a lot of people don't even know the full laws of their own country. I bet if you asked any random person on the street about the laws on tax evasion most people would not know everything that is or isn't against the law. Most people would say you have to pay taxes, some would not be aware about certain loop holes or tax cuts that one may be entitled too etc etc.. And that is the whole reason there is a jury. To analyse each case. Someone might commit murder, but depending on the situation it may or may not be punishable. For example if it was accidental and in self defence..and if they hire a damn good lawyer no punishment is really necessary, the person did not want to commit it, it was the circumstance at the time. They aren't necessarily a murdering psycho with no moral judgement.

That's why the constitution isn't the end all and be all because each situation needs to be heard with a fair trail. Besides thousands of idiots sit on jury all the time who know barely anything at all! What makes them any better equipped than a non US citizen!?

I would welcome different points of views because that is the only way things progress and improve. All science, from medicine, to the internet, to physics, astronomy, etc... is based on people positing different points of views and analysing things from a different perspective. That's the way we have progressed as a species, so why not also in the court room?

one_two_x_u: Also, a lot of people know about American culture and laws. It's rife in the media - the news, movies, music and so on. People are not totally ignorant. I would say I know the same amount of American politics and laws as I know about English ones. People read and study. They don't just sit in their country only learning things about that country!

Serabi:

1_2_x African - because of kangaroo courts. We don't have a jury system in Africa. But we have kangaroo courts - where the guilty/innocent is hauled in front of a group from the community and they decide - it usually ends in the stoning of the person.

My point is - most of these people have no clue about the laws, legal protection, human rights, etc. This kind of vigilantism is totally illegal but carries on at a regular basis.

For the law to work you have to give a person a fair chance in a court of law, presided over by a judge who knows the law.

one_two_x_u: Right, and the person who is willing to put themselves in a position to sit on a jury is probably the type of person who understands that! Even if there happened to be some idiot who had no sense of anything, they aren't solely responsible for the outcome. There are several other people there and chances are they will come to a reasonable and logical conclusion. Besides, it never said that all the jury will be non US citizens. There will probably be citizens amongst them anyway. Besides the judge should be smart enough to understand what is going on and enforce the right punishment.

Serabi:

So, illegal immigrants get to decide on citizens?

After jury duty, do the illegals get arrested for being in the country and deported to their own countries?

I'm no expert on the topic, it just don't sound right to me.

sebtheanimal: Illegal aliens decide the fate of citizens. Got it.
All the more reason to chase residents of CA away.

one_two_x_u: No they don't! They don't decide anything!
And no one is saying they will be illegal immigrants!!!!!!!!!!!!! It only said NON-US CITIZENS. Nothing in that implies illegal immigrants. In fact, an illegal immigrant will not even want to make it known that they are not a US citizen. They will probably avoid doing this at all costs! Just think about it logically for 5 seconds instead of getting overly paranoid about it! American news is the most paranoia-filled thing I have ever encountered in my life so it's understandable why you feel that why, but there is no reason to!

The biggest problem is that you are not understanding that being an illegal immigrant isn't even a bad thing! You only believe it to be bad because it's what you have been told. You think they have no right but who is anyone to declare who has the right to live where they want to live. What ever happened to justice and freedom for all? More like 'justice and freedom for those who can afford it". Remember, WE ARE ALL HUMAN. You have no right to tell people what they do and don't have the right to do, unless their actions are harmful and they are threat to others.

A huge amount of illegal immigrants have been through hell to get to the states. Some are sold as slaves, forced into human trafficking, beaten, have their whole lives turned upside down, they may not even want to be in the states but have no other choice! Those who want to be there do so because they want to live in a country in which they feel safe, in which they can make some money, make something of their lives. Get enough food to survive and clean drinking water. They do all the jobs they do in your country that no one else wants to do. If anything you should be kissing their feet, thanking them for all the crap they go through for you and your country! For cleaning your toilets, cleaning your streets, bringing the most delicious foods to your country (to name just a couple of things). One of the best things about America is the Mexican food!

America (and most of the world) would be nothing without immigrants, both legal and illegal.

And how can you claim what the Europeans did to the native Americans was legal simply because there was not an official written law for it!? It is morally wrong, barbaric and disgusting. If someone tried to come to America now and do the same thing they would be considered terrorists and be attacked.

Just think about this logically and don't get wrapped up in unnecessary fears. If it goes wrong it will be changed. But it most likely will be exactly the same as it is now.

sebtheanimal: Replace illegal immigrants with on-citizen, the state is actively trying to bankrupt itself. This only shows that imbeciles are in control.

sebtheanimal: Mexican food is vile, is this some kind of joke? Argentinians & Brazilians will tell you that.

Serabi:

'America (and most of the world) would be nothing without immigrants, both legal and illegal.'

I can't agree with this statement. Legal, yes - illegal, no. I'm probably very prejudiced in this statement because of experiences at home. A lot of serious crimes are committed by illegal aliens.This includes murder, poaching and kidnapping of young girls for the North African, Middle east and Asian markets.

one_two_x_u: The fact that you are aware that you are prejudiced is a good start ...

sebtheanimal: Everybody is prejudiced.
You are prejudiced against good food.

one_two_x_u: Nope. I love good food. My work (when I'm not studying) is in health foods.