india hanged afzal gura , it was democratic murder

snawani: india claims to me world largest democracy , but reality is far from it , it is murderous country , with killer policies in kashmir , rape , extorsion , torture , jail, firing , curfew , and killing are its main tools in kashmir . and we want freedom from this country

GeraldTheGnome: My outlook on Kashmir is this, no fighting by either side should be conducted over the Kashmir region, instead all people of voting age in Kashmir should be allowed to vote in whether all of Kashmir should be under Pakistani control or Indian control or Independent of both. The result should be final and what they (the majority of Kashmiris of voting age) should be turned into a reality by all sides. I don't know who Afzal Gura is and it is not India or Pakistan or anyone else that is heavy handed, but that of some people within those countries.

What you or I think of anyone in Kashmir, Pakistan or India doesn't matter, it is what the majority of people in Kashmir think that does matter though.

GeraldTheGnome: I don't see Pakistan and India as people anyway, just countries with people that have opposing sides even within each of those countries. Governments in any country aren't a 100 % tell tale sign of what most people in the country go for anyway.

snawani: ya u are right..... we also want to have election there in kashmir .as we want our right to self determination

GeraldTheGnome: So it should be.

snawani: ya

dave3974: the cowardly criminal got what he deserved , may he rot.
kashmir is part of india , you are free to emigrate to a moslem country , if you can not live with other peopls go

snawani: hey Mr dave . it is indian state but indian occupied state , india is biggest terrorist country , and afzal guru was not allowd to plea his case , all was formulated for him ,and there are many questions which remain unanswered for us . and kashmir is not part of india keep this in mind .

snawani: we are 100























































we are 100 percent muslims in kashmir so we sud leave our own home land u duck






5

GeraldTheGnome: I don't know who Afzal is so I never went for or against that person, yes the way this forum started was imbalanced so I diverted it to a more positive subject on Kashmir, rather than just seeming like a one-eyed grudge with generalizations more abundant than facts. Actually parts of Kashmir are torn between the two sides, Pakistan and India, both controlling sections of it.

I would rather see the majority of voting people in Kashmir get what they want, not that of one or of a minority in general. I also find it very hard to believe that everyone there are Muslims. There are no terrorist countries in the world, even the countries with the most evil regimes in charge right are not led by terrorists. That is just slander. Facts, not assumptions and throw away uses of the word Terrorist which you clearly don't know the proper meaning of yet.

GeraldTheGnome: Right now, not just the word right.

dave3974: it is surely part of india , those that do not like it should learn to live with each other, i do not see what it is with some moslems that they need to separate from their neighbours or country.
they are lucky that india is a democracy and they are reprsented

GeraldTheGnome: Okay, here is the confusing bit, Kashmir is broken up into 4 sections, the Northern Areas (which is made up of the Pakistani-administered provinces of Gilgit-Baltistan and Azad Kashmir), Jammu and Kashmir (which is made up of the Indian-administered divisions of Jammu, Kashmir Valley and Ladakh) and the Chinese-administered regions of Aksai Chin and the Trans-Karakoram Tract.

Srinigar is in the Kashmir Valley area, the Kashmir Valley is made up mainly of Muslims like I did suspect, not all, regardless of what has been told here. I still am no closer to who this Afzal Gura was yet.

snawani: ya , sorry i was little bit bussy. ya kashmiir is broken in four parts . we not only want freedom kashmir valley but for whole J and k . with azad kashmir (pak side) . so i will tell u who is afzal guru ,

snawani: Know me as Mohammad Afzal
By From Reader Desk
Published: Sun, 10 February 2013 10:39 PM
In 2006, a journalist, Vinod K. Jose managed to interview Afzal Guru inside the high security Tihar jail in Delhi. In the course of the conversation, which took place on two different days a fortnight apart, Guru said, “If I wanted to see them (his family) alive I had to cooperate. Accepting the charges was the only option in front of me if I wanted to see the family alive.”
During the interview, Guru laid bare the ‘due process’ and the ‘course of law’ that took him to the gallows and finally ‘extinguished’ his life - without a fair trial and with manufactured ‘evidence’. We may never know who actually plotted the attack on the Indian parliament building, but Guru’s story in his own plain words tears to shreds the claims of ‘rule of law’ and shames the majoritarianism that passes of as democracy.
To a question about his contradicting persona, Afzal Guru said: “Afzal is a Kashmiri who was influenced like so many others by the political climate of the early 1990s… I was a member of the JKLF and crossed over to the other side of Kashmir, but within a matter of weeks got disillusioned, came back and tried to live a normal life. But I was never allowed to do so by the security agencies who picked me up and tortured the pulp out of me… The lies the police told were propagated by you in the media. That perhaps created what the Supreme Court referred to as the ‘collective conscience of the nation’. And to satisfy that ‘collective conscience’, I have been condemned to death.”
And then Guru wondered if the outside world knew anything about the real him. “Do you think justice has been done? Would you like to hang a person without giving him a lawyer? Without a fair trial? Without listening to what he had to go through in life? Democracy doesn’t mean all this, does it?”
Guru grew up to be a young man when Kashmir had hit a very turbulent period in its political history. He said to Jose, “Maqbool Bhat was hanged. The situation was volatile. The people of Kashmir decided to fight the electoral battle once again to resolve the Kashmir issue through peaceful means. Muslim United Front (MUF) was formed to represent the sentiments of Kashmiri Muslims for the final settlement of the Kashmir issue.”
In response to a call for armed resistance, Guru also joined JKLF and crossed the border giving up his MBBS at the Jhelum Valley Medical College, Srinagar. “But I was disillusioned when I saw Pakistani politicians acting in the same way as Indian politicians when it came to dealing with Kashmiris,” he said.

Rajbeer Singh allowed me to talk to my wife the next day. After the call he told me if I wanted to see them alive I had to cooperate. Accepting the charges was the only option in front of me if I wanted to see my family alive

Guru surrendered to BSF to begin “life anew”, but “not a day passed by without the Rashtriya Rifles and STF (Special Task Force) men harassing me.” An ordeal of torture and ransom began for him that ended only with his hanging.
“After the lessons I had learned in STF camps, I hardly had any options left when DSP Davinder Singh asked me to do a small job for him. That is what he said, ‘A small job’. He told me that I had to take one man to Delhi. I was supposed to find a rented house for him in Delhi. I was seeing the man for the first time, but since he did not speak Kashmiri I suspected he was an outsider. He told me his name was Mohammad [who was later identified by the police as the man who led the attacked on Parliament].”
Guru told Jose that “Mohammad and I used to get phone calls from Davinder Singh” while in Delhi.
After his arrest at a bus-stand Srinagar, Guru was tortured and finally taken to Delhi. “I told them everything I knew about Mohammad. But they insisted that I should say that my cousin Shaukat, his wife Navjot, SAR Geelani and myself were the people behind the Parliament attack.”
“They wanted me to say this convincingly in front of the media. I resisted. But I had no option but to yield when they told me my family was in their custody and they threatened to kill them. I was made to sign many blank pages and was forced to talk to the media and claim responsibility for the attack by repeating what the police told me to say. When a journalist asked me about the role of SAR Geelani, I told him Geelani was innocent. ACP Rajbeer Singh shouted at me in the full media glare for talking beyond what they had tutored me.”
The actual plot was in place.
“Rajbeer Singh allowed me to talk to my wife the next day. After the call he told me if I wanted to see them alive I had to cooperate. Accepting the charges was the only option in front of me if I wanted to see my family alive, and the Special Cell officers promised they would make my case weak so that I would be released after some time.”
Soon Guru realised that he was alone and there was absolutely no one to turn to.
“There was no one to arrange a lawyer for me…The lawyer chosen by the Court began by admitting some of the most crucial documents without even asking me what the truth of the matter was. Then the Court appointed an amicus curie, not to defend me, but to assist the Court in the matter. He never met me. And he was very hostile and communal. That is my case — completely unrepresented at the crucial trial stage.”
Guru would spend his time in solitary confinement in the “high-risk cell” without access to what was being reported about him.
“Even the newspaper I subscribe to reaches me with parts of it torn out. If there is a news item about me, they tear that portion out and give me the rest.”
Even under such conditions Guru would worry about “hundreds of Kashmiris languishing in different jails, without lawyers, without trial, without any rights.”
In the jail he read Arundhati Roy, and Sartre’s work on existentialism and didn’t hesitate to acknowledge efforts by some in India to get him justice.
“I am really moved and obliged by the thousands of people who came forward saying injustice has been done to me. The lawyers, students, writers, intellectuals, and all those people are doing something great by speaking out against injustice.”
Guru suffered so much fear, humiliation and torture that he told Jose that all he wanted for his son to be was “him to grow (up) without fear”.
“I want him to speak against injustice. Who else knows the story of injustice better than my wife and son?”
Before Jose was separated from Guru by an ‘ear-splitting electric bell’ of the jail indicating end of the allotted time for them, Guru told him, “People outside Kashmir have no clue what Indian security forces are up to in Kashmir.”
He wanted to be known as Afzal, as Mohammad Afzal.
“I am Afzal for Kashmiris, and I am Afzal for Indians as well, but the two groups have entirely conflicting perceptions of me. I would naturally trust the judgment of the Kashmiri people, not only because I am one among them, but also because they are well aware of the reality I have been through.”
• Protests in Muzaffarabad, PaK govt calls for 3- day mourning
Netizens outraged
By MUDASIR AHMED
Published: Sun, 10 February 2013 09:29 PM
Srinagar: Internet users took to social networking sites to express outrage over the hanging of Afzal Guru.
Facebook was flooded with comments criticising Government of India’s decision to hang Guru, even as Kashmiri users blacked their profile pictures in protest. Noted human rights activist Khurram Parvez posted, “29 years ago same month Maqbool Butt was hanged to retaliate the killing of Indian diplomat Mahatre. Today by hanging Afzal Guru in a secretive manner, after denying fair trial to him, for satisfying the collective conscience of Indian nation, the Government of India like fascists has hanged him to use it for domestic electoral gains and in retaliation of the recent LoC beheading.”
Renowned Kashmiri journalist Yusuf Jameel wrote, “What a twist of fate. Afzal Guru would say Maqbool Butt's ‘mission and sacrifice’ inspired him the most. He was hanged in same jail his ‘guru’ was. That two days before Butt would be remembered on his 28th death anniversary.”
Abir Bashir Bazaz, a Kashmiri academician posted, “Remember this is the India we are fighting and this is the message India has sent to us. The choice of date is deliberate; they could not have been ignorant of it. That after countless uprisings, they can still murder, rape and torture those who love the freedom of their land and those who remember the suffering of their people whenever and wherever they want.”
Gowhar Geelani, a journalist wrote, “The conscience of a whining nation is often satisfied by hanging human beings from the Kashmir Valley. It was February 1984 then. It is February 2013 now. This is not the time to whip up passions, because the seeds for a fresh revolution have perhaps been sown by the oppressor itself.”
Mohsin Mattoo, a former management student, posted, “For Kashmiris this should suffice any hopes of getting justice under Indian Judicial system...”
UK-based academician Dibyesh Anand wrote, “India's collective conscience is as hypocritical as it is murderous. And it adds one more state-planned, state-sanctioned, state-executed murder to the list.”
Lalit Magazine, a Kashmiri Pandit posted, “Whatever little faith I had in India's justice, I have lost it completely today. I am sad and shocked. Vote bank politics has prevailed over justice and fair-play.”
Dr Sheikh Showkat Hussain, another Kashmiri academician wrote, “Decision taken to counter BJP for electoral gains its impact—irreversible alienation of Kashmir.”
Facebook user Shuddhabrata Sengupta, posted, “Afzal Guru, a man who never killed anyone, was executed today by a hangman state. A black day in the history of the Indian Republic, a pawn of the game of 13 December has been moved off the chess board. The king, queen, knights and bishops, those who planned and watched his every move from within the recesses of the deep state in India are still at large.”
On twitter, there was no let up in the flow of tweets criticising Government of India for hanging Afzal guru.
Twitter user Samreen Mushtaq posted, “Congratulations to all those whose 'collective conscience has been satisfied' today. How I wish I were in Kashmir with my people today. Congratulations, @abdullah_omar , you must be a proud man today. Add this to your list of achievements.”
Sameer Bhat, a Kashmiri writer tweeted, “And his life was made extinct because he was a #Kashmiri. It is as simple as that.”
Another user Harris Zargar tweeted, “Won't be surprised if Kashmir takes to gun following Afzal Guru 's hanging, I see history repeating itself.”
Prominent anti-India page Aalaw, tweeted, “Afzal Guru was never given a fair trial, he was not represented by any lawyer of his choice. Even the witnesses weren't cross examined.”
A prominent twitter user who goes by the pseudonym IbneBattuta tweeted, “Afzal hanged for India’s dead ‘collective conscience'. India burns all bridges to Kashmir.”
Another twitter user Ashwini Mishra tweeted, “Curfew in Kashmir. Internet Blocked. Army Deployed. Looks lot like a government covering for murdering an innocent man.”

snawani:
THE PERFECT DAY OF DEMOCRACY ARUNDATI ROY
Wasn’t it? Yesterday I mean. Spring announced itself in Delhi. The sun was out, and the Law took its Course. Just before breakfast, Afzal Guru, prime accused in the 2001 Parliament Attack was secretly hanged, and his body was interred in Tihar Jail. Was he buried next to Maqbool Butt? (The other Kashmiri who was hanged in Tihar in 1984. Kashmiris will mark that anniversary tomorrow.) Afzal’s wife and son were not informed. “The Authorities intimated the family through Speed Post and Registered Post,” the Home Secretary told the press, “the Director General of J&K Police has been told to check whether they got it or not.” No big deal, they’re only the family of a Kashmiri terrorist.
In a moment of rare unity the Nation, or at least its major political parties, the Congress, the BJP and the CPM came together as one (barring a few squabbles about ‘delay’ and ‘timing’) to celebrate the triumph of the Rule of Law. The Conscience of the Nation, which broadcasts live from TV studios these days, unleashed its collective intellect on us — the usual cocktail of papal passion and a delicate grip on facts. Even though the man was dead and gone, like cowards that hunt in packs, they seemed to need each other to keep their courage up. Perhaps because deep inside themselves they know that they all colluded to do something terribly wrong.
What are the facts?
On the 13th of December 2001 five armed men drove through the gates of the Parliament House in a white Ambassador fitted out with an Improvised Explosive Device. When they were challenged they jumped out of the car and opened fire. They killed eight security personnel and a gardener. In the gun battle that followed, all five attackers were killed. In one of the many versions of confessions he made in police custody, Afzal Guru identified the men as Mohammed, Rana, Raja, Hamza and Haider. That’s all we know about them even today. L.K. Advani, the then Home Minister, said they ‘looked like Pakistanis.’ (He should know what Pakistanis look like right? Being a Sindhi himself.) Based only on Afzal’s confession (which the Supreme Court subsequently set aside citing ‘lapses’ and ‘violations of procedural safeguards’) the Government of India recalled its Ambassador from Pakistan and mobilised half a million soldiers to the Pakistan border. There was talk of nuclear war. Foreign embassies issued Travel Advisories and evacuated their staff from Delhi. The standoff lasted for months and cost India thousands of crores.
On the 14th of December 2001 the Delhi Police Special Cell claimed it had cracked the case. On the 15th of December it arrested the ‘master mind’ Professor S.A.R Geelani in Delhi and Showkat Guru and Afzal Guru in a fruit market in Srinagar. Subsequently they arrested Afsan Guru, Showkat’s wife. The media enthusiastically disseminated the Special Cell’s version. These were some of the headlines: ‘DU Lecturer was Terror Plan Hub’, ‘Varsity Don Guided Fidayeen’, ‘Don Lectured on Terror in Free Time.’ Zee TV broadcast a ‘docudrama’ called December 13th , a recreation that claimed to be the ‘Truth Based on the Police Charge Sheet.’ (If the police version is the truth, then why have courts?) Then Prime Minister Vajpayee and L.K. Advani publicly appreciated the film. The Supreme Court refused to stay the screening saying that the media would not influence judges. The film was broadcast only a few days before the fast track court sentenced Afzal, Showkat and Geelani to death. Subsequently the High Court acquitted the ‘mastermind’, Professor S.A.R Geelani, and Afsan Guru. The Supreme Court upheld the acquittal. But in its 5th August 2005 judgment it gave Mohammed Afzal three life sentences and a double death sentence.
Contrary to the lies that have been put about by some senior journalists who would have known better, Afzal Guru was not one of “the terrorists who stormed Parliament House on December 13th 2001” nor was he among those who “opened fire on security personnel, apparently killing three of the six who died.” (That was the BJP Rajya Sabha MP, Chandan Mitra, in The Pioneer, October 7th 2006). Even the police charge sheet does not accuse him of that. The Supreme Court judgment says the evidence is circumstantial: “As is the case with most conspiracies, there is and could be no direct evidence amounting to criminal conspiracy.” But then it goes on to say: “The incident, which resulted in heavy casualties had shaken the entire nation, and the collective conscience of society will only be satisfied if capital punishment is awarded to the offender.”
Who crafted our collective conscience on the Parliament Attack case? Could it have been the facts we gleaned from the papers? The films we saw on TV?
There are those who will argue that the very fact that the courts acquitted S.A.R Geelani and convicted Afzal proves that the trial was free and fair. Was it?
The trial in the fast-track court began in May 2002. The world was still convulsed by post 9/11 frenzy. The US government was gloating prematurely over its ‘victory’ in Afghanistan. The Gujarat pogrom was ongoing. And in the Parliament Attack case, the Law was indeed taking its own course. At the most crucial stage of a criminal case, when evidence is presented, when witnesses are cross-examined, when the foundations of the argument are laid — in the High Court and the Supreme Court you can only argue points of law, you cannot introduce new evidence — Afzal Guru, locked in a high security solitary cell, had no lawyer. The court-appointed junior lawyer did not visit his client even once in jail, he did not summon any witnesses in Afzal’s defence and did not cross examine the prosecution witnesses. The judge expressed his inability to do anything about the situation.
Even still, from the word go, the case fell apart. A few examples out of many:
How did the police get to Afzal? They said that S.A.R Geelani led them to him. But the court records show that the message to arrest Afzal went out before they picked up Geelani. The High Court called this a ‘material contradiction’ but left it at that.
The two most incriminating pieces of evidence against Afzal were a cellphone and a laptop confiscated at the time of arrest. The Arrest Memos were signed by Bismillah, Geelani’s brother, in Delhi. The Seizure Memos were signed by two men of the J&K Police, one of them an old tormentor from Afzal’s past as a surrendered ‘militant’. The computer and cellphone were not sealed, as evidence is required to be. During the trial it emerged that the hard disc of the laptop had been accessed after the arrest. It only contained the fake home ministry passes and the fake identity cards that the terrorists used to access Parliament. And a Zee TV video clip of Parliament House. So according to the police, Afzal had deleted all the information except the most incriminating bits, and he was speeding off to hand it over to Ghazi Baba, who the charge sheet described as the Chief of Operations.
A witness for the prosecution, Kamal Kishore, identified Afzal and told the court he had sold him the crucial SIM card that connected all the accused in the case to each other on the 4th of December 2001. But the prosecution’s own call records showed that the SIM was actually operational from November 6th 2001.
It goes on and on, this pile up of lies and fabricated evidence. The courts note them, but for their pains the police get no more than a gentle rap on their knuckles. Nothing more.
Then there’s the back story. Like most surrendered militants Afzal was easy meat in Kashmir — a victim of torture, blackmail, extortion. In the larger scheme of things he was a nobody. Anyone who was really interested in solving the mystery of the Parliament Attack would have followed the dense trail of evidence that was on offer. No one did, thereby ensuring that the real authors of conspiracy will remain unidentified and uninvestigated.
But now that Afzal Guru has been hanged, I hope our collective conscience has been satisfied. Or is our cup of blood still only half full?
Shocked to hear of the hanging on television”
Hours after the news of his death by hanging broke, Mohammed Afzal Guru’s lawyers Nandita Haksar and N.D. Pancholi made their way to the Tihar Jail here, carrying with them a letter from his family seeking permission to say a prayer at his grave. Guru, who was convicted for the December 2001 attack on Parliament, was hanged and buried inside the heavily fortified Tihar Jail on Saturday morning.
“The family called us in the morning; they said they were not informed of the hanging. They have now requested the authorities to at least allow them to perform namaz-e-janaza [funeral prayer] and the last rites as per their faith,” Ms. Haksar told The Hindu.
The letter, addressed to Director-General of Prisons Vimla Mehra, says the “family members have been shocked to hear the news of the hanging on national television.” The last time the death warrant was issued by Additional Sessions Judge Ravinder Kaur, Mr. Pancholi was informed so that he could in turn pass on the message to the family. [But] “This time they were denied the basic human right of meeting Afzal,” says the letter.
Ms. Haksar said the Guru family, residing in Kashmir, was not being allowed to move out of the house, nor were mourners allowed in. In Kashmir too, the Grand Mufti Bashir-ud-din raised a demand for handing over the body to the family and allowing it to perform the last rites.
“It is a sad day, Afzal was more wronged. He was not a fundamentalist or Jamati. He rejected Pakistan and returned from there disillusioned. But no one wants to hear that,” she said.
Slamming the calls for “celebration,” Ms. Haksar said it was ironic that, on the one hand, “right-wing” politicians claimed that Kashmir was an integral part of India and, on the other, they were calling for celebrating the execution when Kashmir was in “mourning.”
“No one wants to know Afzal’s story, no one wants to question why Parliament was attacked in the first place,” she said, adding the hanging would have an impact on Guru’s teenage son and the people in Kashmir.
“Regressive”
Meenakshi Ganguly, South Asia Director of Human Rights Watch, described Guru’s hanging as “regressive” and questioned the efficacy of the death penalty.
“Death penalty should be abolished as it is inhuman and irreversible. Is this how the Indian state wants to show that it isn’t a ‘soft state’? Most people in India today feel insecure; people step out of their houses not knowing if they will return; it is more important that the state makes them feel secure. Punishment is not the step to make people feel secure and a state that cannot protect its citizens is a soft state,” Ms. Ganguly said.
While human rights activists condemned the hanging of Guru and the way it was carried out in secrecy, Radha Kumar, one of the interlocutors on J&K appointed by the Centre, cautioned that it would impact the peace process in the State negatively.
“In the past year and a half there has been a vacuum in the peace process and this [Guru’s hanging] will have a bad effect on it. Protests have already begun in Kashmir.”
Professor Kumar said she had heard people complain, during her interaction in the Valley, that the justice system was in disrepair. “In the Valley, many feel that people here get partial justice; I hope that this hanging is not perceived in that context. It has little to do with Kashmir and Kashmiris.
..




all i have to tell u abt afzal guru

GeraldTheGnome: In your own words, not in that of a lengthy article someone made, I want to know somethings about Afzal Gura. What was he doing exactly before the very second that he was captured ? What are his beliefs ? What would have happened next if his major aim in regards to Kashmir was met ? What activities did the last group that he was with do and what is that group's current major aim ? Majoritarianism is yet another made up word that plagues those of the world that use English solely or before anything else.

GeraldTheGnome: Is somethings a word ? Maybe I would've been best to use some things rather than run it into one word.

dave3974: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

GeraldTheGnome: Actually the article was just far left winged propaganda, more frustrating than boring. I'd rather know the answers to the questions I have put forward to the maker of this forum.

snawani: What was he doing exactly before the very second that he was captured?
he was on way to home fronm market when goi arrested him from batamalu busstand

2 What are his beliefs ?
he was muslim ,
What would have happened next if his major aim in regards to Kashmir was met.
look he was innocent man , he was caught by police officer who was irritating him all the time . i have send u article becoz u read them and you will get ans to your questions.
3
he was ex miltant , ex miltant have no group ,

GeraldTheGnome: Militant or an ex military person ? Beliefs in this case does not mean if he followed Islam or an other religion, it means what was all that he believed in as far as Kashmir was concerned and what lengths did he and/or was he willing to go to make them a reality. So far I only have your word that he was with no group, elsewhere I have been shown articles that tell me or at least claim that he was in at least one terrorist group or militant group or both.

I can even show the names of the groups that are mentioned. I'm sure people don't just get arrested just for being on their way home from a market, even by over the top cops.

snawani: no reality is he was militant after that he left them . you get front line an indian magzine

GeraldTheGnome: No, reality is answering the question properly in order to understand where you are coming from. I'm still waiting. He left what group exactly and why ? What did and does that group believe in ? Don't simply imply that I am asking what religion they belong to.

snawani: look in kashmir we all want freedom from india

GeraldTheGnome: Look, a lot of people in a lot of places want this and want that, the list of how many is too numerous, the problem is how certain people want it and what lengths will they go to to get what they want. Afzal Gura may be one of the people that goes to any length to get what he wants. To go to any length to get something should never be rewarded, only the innocent people should be rewarded with what they want, whoever they are and whatever they want.