Israel/ Palestine Let the negotiations begin!

XWhiteandBlue
XWhiteandBlue:

This video makes a very good case for the reasoning behind Israel's desire to maintain control of certain areas.

How could Palestine reassure Israel, that their continued existance will not be put in jeaprody by re-defining their borders?
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davidk14
davidk14: .

And this video explains the history....



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Comrade_
Comrade_:
"Israel to build 3,000 settler homes after UN vote"

-Israel has authorised the construction of 3,000 more housing units in occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank, according to Israeli officals.

-It is also speeding up the processing of 1,000 planning permissions.

-The PA has said it will not return to peace talks without a freeze in settlement building.

-About 500,000 Jews live in more than 100 settlements built since the occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem. The settlements are considered ILLEGAL under international law, though Israel disputes this.

Read more at: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20552391
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Way to 'negotiate' eh. Wonder who wouldn't consider this to be a real 'hurt peace' move...
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XWhiteandBlue
XWhiteandBlue: Thanks for the news article Jack:

So, you would freeze Both sides from building until a settlement is reached?
That's a good start... but keep it going, where do we go from there in order to reach a settlement?
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Comrade_
Comrade_:
How can I freeze anything? I'm a man with no powers as you are.

Palestine (EU & UN) has a point in freezing the building. If the negotiation is to take place concerning the borderlines then the right step would be to halt construction along those areas.

Negotiate.

It is what you are supporting, is it not.
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XWhiteandBlue
XWhiteandBlue: So we are in agreement, Both sides should freeze new building/ landgrab activities until they can figure out/ negotiate where a mutually acceptable agreement falls?

Yes, I am supporting (Hoping & praying as well) Both sides negotiating in good faith.
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davidk14
davidk14: .

Israel builds houses and homes, buildings and shopping centers. They build infrastructural water and power, sewage, streets, lights and neighborhoods....on the West Bank. So what. Just because they build does not mean Israel will not swap land for peace. Israel was in Gaza for over 30 years and built homes and infrastructure and left Gaza in the name of peace and what did that bring Israel? Nothing but war.

You do not understand that Israel will "sell" or "trade" those homes and houses and land for peace. Nothing changes. The Palestinians get towns and villages already to move into.

The problem is...The Palestineans do not want Israel to exist. They do not want Jews in the Middle East. If they did, they would get rid of Hamas and Hezbollah which only exist to destroy....destroy....not build.

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Comrade_
Comrade_:
I've not seen an Israeli official state that this is the intended purpose. Care to share with the rest of us, davidk14?
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XWhiteandBlue
XWhiteandBlue: david does have a point, not that it is the intended purpose, but that there is a historical prescedent already set.

History does not repeat itself, but unless aconcious effort is made to avoid it, it tends to rhyme.

It is historical fact (& sets the prescedent) that the Palestinians recieved a built up Gaza, with Infrastructure, housing, and a budding Flower cultivating industry, and immediately proceeded to raze/ burn it all to the ground, and launch attacks towards the rest of Israel, AFTER israel gave it to them.

How can Palestine reassure Israel, that it wouldn't happen again, this time in the west bank?
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Comrade_
Comrade_:
If it is not the intended purpose then it is based on assumptions. An assumption that I have not seen backed by anyone who is in the position to make that assumption. Someone as an Israeli official.

The fact remains that it is hindering the negotiation process and I think that it is better to focus on negotiation processes than on building.
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XWhiteandBlue
XWhiteandBlue: ^^ Now you are using logical arguments... THIS is what we need more of to get somwhere intellectually here; however, You are stopping short... on the negative "Stop doing this"only leads you to a standstill" Where do they go from there? (In your hypothetical opinion) Is what I'd like to know.
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davidk14
davidk14: .

Fact - Israel signed a peace treaty with Egypt and returned the Sinai.

Fact - Israel signed a peace treaty with Jordan and Jordan abandoned the West Bank to Israel.

Fact - Israel signed a peace treaty with Arafat (Oslo Accords) and returned the Gaza.

These are not assumptions. They are factual. Gaza was built by Israel for over 30 years and the Israeli's evacuated everything.

You continue to view this part of the world through fucked up glasses.

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Comrade_
Comrade_:
Someone has to right..

"on the negative "Stop doing this"only leads you to a standstill" Where do they go from there? (In your hypothetical opinion) Is what I'd like to know. "

You should explain that sentence to me further, I'm not following you.

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Comrade_
Comrade_:
davidk14 don't seem to follow.

Your assumption is that Israel is building with the future intentions of giving up those areas should the negotiation is settled.

This remains your assumption because no one who is in the authority to state it has said it. No Israeli official has hinted that this is the case.

Even if one has stated that this is the case it is still affecting the negotiation process and will still be useless to build there.

You're following us now davidk14?
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XWhiteandBlue
XWhiteandBlue: Israel stops building... ok, then what?
Where do teh negotiations go from there?

I want to see where we can take this hypothetical to a plausible agreement. (something that in theory, would be acceptable to both parties)

I'd like to see you explore that direction a little further than just "Stop building"
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Comrade_
Comrade_:
It is not hypothetical. I'm stating that stopping the building opens the way to negotiations. Brings Palestine to the table. I get this idea from what is stated by the PA, which is that they will return to the peace talks when the settlement building has stopped.

Don't you think that the important step is getting these two groups to the negotiations table and to peace talks?
(Edited by Comrade_)
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XWhiteandBlue
XWhiteandBlue: Agreed, Israel should pause the building, even if it is as a "good faith gesture" but what then? Where do you think the negotiations should go from there?

Will Palestine then come to the negotiating table? or will they have another set of demands that have to be met before they will?

And then what? Does Israel resume teh building if Palestine refuses to come to the table?


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Comrade_
Comrade_:
What if Palestine do come to the table?
Who knows, but the ball will be in their court and it will certainly send a better message.
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davidk14
davidk14: .

Israel already had suspended building for a year and the Palestineans did not come to the table even with a threat of restarting building. The date came and went and they did not come to the table.


They CAN"T come to the table. Hamas would not allow Abbas to go to the table. What is so hard to understand here.


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Comrade_
Comrade_:
I prefer to go by what I see and to take things from there.

Why the hustle to build there when it still has to be negotiated? If you think that there will be no negotiation then why did you assume that Israel will "sell/trade those homes for peace". Where did you assume the 'peace' or agreement would come from if not negotiations? You had another means of getting 'peace' or coming to that future agreement, davidk14.
If you don't understand the question I can break it down further when I get back. I have to head out and do some Saturday stuff.

http://rt.com/news/palestine-israel-negotiations-un-vote-053/
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Comrade_
Comrade_:
An update:

"The US has criticised Israel's decision to authorise the construction of 3,000 more housing units in occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said that "these activities set back the cause of a negotiated peace".

The White House had earlier described the proposal as "counter-productive"."

Read more at: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20564484
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XWhiteandBlue
XWhiteandBlue: I find it funny that most people will sit there and take "potshots" at the actions of teh side they disagree with, but nobody actually makes the mental effort to try to come up with a solution.

"I'd rather wait and see" is a cheap "cop out" from an exercise that was from its inception purely academic & hypothetical, as none of us have the authority to actually make any of these decisions.

I agree that the building permits may be counter productive from certain points of view... they could also be a pretty risky "bargaining gamble" that Israel may be playing... you see, in most Middle eastern cultures, "negotiating" is a daily part of life, and normal, expected social interacion in all aspects of life.
Therefore, the "seller" always jacks up the price, and the buyer always makes a "lowball offer" initially.

I suspect that for this negotiations settlement to come to an acceptable conclusion, eventually Israel will end up having to cede more land than they originally want to, and Palestine will have to grant a lot more consesions than they are currently willing to accept for that land.


Viewed in that light, the building, could be seen as a politically/diplomatically risky attempt to jockey for a better starting position to bargain from, as it gives Israel something else they can give up on the negotiating table.

Problem with those kinds of gambles, is that you cannot make them so big that you drive the other party from the negotiating table (or loose your international credibility due to them) otherwise, they end up being counter-productive by impeeding the whole negotiation.

Western cultures do not abscribe to this kind of bargaining, and with global comunications, some middle eastern cultures have begun to be influenced by the "western, no haggle" way of doing buisness, adding even more inpredictability to the whole process.
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Comrade_
Comrade_:
An update:

--"Israeli settlement plans in a strategically sensitive area of occupied land near East Jerusalem would deal "an almost fatal blow" to peace hopes, UN head Ban Ki-moon has warned."

--"Palestinians in East Jerusalem could be completely cut off from the rest of the West Bank, he said."

--"On Monday, the UK summoned the Israeli envoy to express its concerns.
The UK Foreign Office said Israel should expect a "strong reaction" if it went ahead with its plans."

--"The US said earlier the expansion plan was counter-productive and would make it harder to resume peace talks, and EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton said she was "extremely worried" by prospects of large-scale construction."

--"Mahmoud Abbas has called for an end to settlement building and a return to peace talks."

--""We will carry on building in Jerusalem and in all the places that are on the map of Israel's strategic interests," he (Netanyahu ) added."

--"In a separate development, the Israeli government also said that it would be stopping a $100m (£62m) transfer of tax revenues that it collected on behalf of the Palestinian Authority.
Israel said it was because the Palestinians had not settled a $200m debt to an Israeli electricity firm."

--"However, Israeli Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz warned last month that if the Palestinians went ahead with the UN bid Israel would "not collect taxes for them and we will not transfer their revenues"."

--"The settlements are considered illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this."

-http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20576201
-http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000072010&story_title=World:%20UN's%20Ban%20Ki-moon%20warns%20Israel%20of%20'fatal%20blow'%20to%20peace
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davidk14
davidk14: .

One thing left out of all of your posts...Permits for construction of these new housing developments are years away....years.
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Comrade_
Comrade_:
--"Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu: "We will continue building in Jerusalem and anywhere on Israel's strategic map""

Only an idiot will think that the intent is not to build in these areas. Oh...ah...nvm.
(Edited by Comrade_)
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davidk14
davidk14: .

One thing left out of all of your posts...Permits for construction of these new housing developments are years away....years.

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