davidk14: .

Sixties,

Made a mistake, I should have said that Clinton had won less than 50% of the popular vote. That is what I meant. If Perot had not run, Bush 'most likely' would have won since Perot split the vote. Sorry for the mistake.

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Perdurabo: I think people vote for tryants, dictators, sharia law etc because then it gives them a legitimate reason to be able to leave their shitholes of a country and seek asylum somewhere better.

'Got no money to buy a new LCD TV? Living in a shack? Want to wear the latest western fashions? Then vote for a tryanical government who are gonna remove all your human rights and come live in Australian/Canada/Europe'

Nicotina2: Canada has already started on the removal of human rights. Not sure who's leading the race on that one.

StuckInTheSixties:

Mistakes happen, david.

Care to address the couple of questions I asked in that post?

davidk14: .

Sixties said: “…ending it with the one-word sentence "Interesting." seems to suggest that you're implying something with that comparison. Can you elaborate?”

David responds: Just being David.

Sixties said:

[lots of complaining about Egypt, democracy, Sharia law, etc.]

Other than accepting that things can't always go the way you'd like, what do you propose that the USA (or the world) should do about it?



David responds:


Not complaining about democracy. I’ve asked a number of times for folks to chime in on the description of democracy. I / we / some believe that democracy is a good thing. Sort of a foundation to build on. Yet I feel some do not know the description of the word. So I posted a description and I have received just one comment on it. So either it is correct, it isn’t correct or perhaps no one cares.

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David previously said one day ago:

Let’s get back to the word democracy…and what it means. I posted a thorough description of the word:

http://www.stanford.edu/~ldiamond/iraq/WhaIsDemocracy012004.htm

Please take a look and comment on the description and how it does or does not pertain to the Egyptian revolution.

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StuckInTheSixties:

Democracy, though it's the best thing goin', has flaws. One big ironic flaw, as Egypt is demonstrating, is that a democracy, by it's very nature, can kill itself. People can use the democratic process to dispense with democracy.

One Bar: "Democracy, though it's the best thing goin'..." (Sits)

Wow...that's a brash assumption.

davidk14: One Bar,

Did you look at the description? Any thoughts?

http://www.stanford.edu/~ldiamond/iraq/WhaIsDemocracy012004.htm

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One Bar: No, sorry.

OCD_OCD: I'm in a bit of a quandary with myself about the problems in Egypt. How can, and should we even bother, to try to educate and enlighten people who apparently have a completely different set of religious and moral values than we do?

We believe that stoning women to death is wrong. The women being stoned to death, (or refused education, etc., etc, etc.,) probably know that they don't want to be stoned to death, but they know no other way of life. What little information they have is filtered through their religious leaders or their male family members.

Are they happy being treated this way? We are horrified on their behalf, but shouldn't we allow them to choose that life? Many people believe that we should not rest until the abuse of women, or any sect in society, is stopped.

I don't necessarily think we should. Does it mean that many people will die? Probably.

My question is when should we turn our backs and when should we not? To me many of these problems are clashes of culture, not necessarily human rights issues.

Comrade_: yan26 I agree with you on both accounts. The Egyptians themselves fought to get this far (I'm still waiting to see why the OP got the idea that something is owed to the "we" that he is referring to). From where they stand there is still room to grow, each at their own pace but once growth is being done and the people know that revolution is a possibility then the only thing left to do is to leave them let them be.

davidk14: .

The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt has stated that if the US withholds funds ($1.5 billion USD) due to the imprisonment of the US aid workers, the peace treaty with Israel will be in jeopardy. Will the US be blackmailed?

On the other hand, the US knows that the Russians would be more than happy to provide the Muslim Brotherhood with $1.5 billion in military aid.

So what will the US do? Sacrifice the US citizens or hold fast and withhold the funds which would scuttle the Egyptian / Israeli peace treaty?



Egypt Islamist: cuts in US aid imperil peace deal
Published February 16, 2012
| Associated Press

CAIRO – The leader of Egypt's largest Islamist party has rejected U.S. threats to cut aid over a spat about nonprofit groups operating in the country, saying they are out of line and could imperil the peace deal with Israel.

The comments by Mohammed Morsi, the leader of the political arm of the Muslim Brotherhood, were carried by the state news agency Thursday and were posted on the party Facebook page.

Egypt claims the four U.S. groups are fomenting protests against the country's military rulers and sowing discord. Judges have referred 16 Americans, including six currently in Egypt and barred from traveling, and 27 others to criminal court. No date for the trial has been set yet.

The dispute has shaken relations between Washington and Cairo, and U.S. officials and legislators have threatened to cut aid to Egypt -- $1.3 billion in military assistance and $250 million in economic assistance -- if the issue is not resolved.

Morsi said the annual U.S. aid is part of its commitment to Egypt's 1979 treaty with Israel -- a bedrock of U.S. interests in the Middle East -- and should not be at risk because of the dispute over the nonprofit groups.

"The U.S. is a principle part of this agreement and its guarantor. There is no room for talking about aid except in the framework of discussing the peace deal," Morsi said. "Brandishing threats to stop this aid is out of place. Otherwise, the peace deal would be reconsidered or it could flounder."
Morsi's comments are in line with previous statements from Egyptian officials who have said the peace deal with Israel is not scared and can be amended. But Morsi's remarks are the first since the spat with Washington erupted in December.

After years of being targeted by a security crackdown under Hosni Mubarak, the Brotherhood was emerged as the dominant political force since Mubarak was ousted in a popular uprising a year ago. The group's political arm, the Freedom and Justice Party. which Morsi heads, is the pre-eminent force in Egypt's parliament, with nearly half of the seats.

A senior Cabinet minister, Faiza Aboul Naga, had accused the U.S. groups of using the foreign funds to foment pro-democracy protests against the country's military rulers, who took over after Hosni Mubarak was ousted in a popular uprising a year ago.

The U.S. nonprofit organizations under investigation -- including the National Democratic Institute and the International Republican Institute -- blame Aboul Naga, an old Mubarak stalwart, of pushing the campaign.

On Wednesday, the Muslim Brotherhood said it supports the government's position regarding the aid groups and rejects U.S. pressure to drop the case.

The foreign funding affair has also been interpreted by many among Egypt's pro-democracy groups as part of a larger plan to neutralize rights groups and other civil society organizations who challenged Mubarak and continue to challenge what they say are grave rights violations by the military rulers.

Investigative judges have said a second phase of the probe is looking into Egyptian groups receiving foreign funds.

The Brotherhood, which previously has backed the military's crackdown on pro-democracy and rights organizations, is itself an unregistered group that does not disclose information about its finances, saying only that it finances its activities through member subscriptions and donations from businessmen.

The Brotherhood doesn't openly oppose the peace deal with Israel, but has said it would consider amending it to allow more Egyptian troops along the border with Israel. They also have said they would put the agreement to a public referendum.

In his comments, Morsi voiced similar sentiments.

"We want the peace to continue in a way that would preserve the interests of the Egyptian people," he said.

The Brotherhood's deputy chairman, Khairat el-Shater, told Al-Jazeera television that U.S. aid should not be conditional and should continue to flow as a "compensation" for years of supporting Mubarak's autocratic regime.

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davidk14: .

Muslim Brotherhood: If you withhold the $1.5 billion per year aid package, your citizens might just be convicted of spying.

US: You’re kidding?

MB: Really? Try us.

US: You wouldn’t do that.

MB: Not only that, but they will be condemned to death by stoning. Think we are not serious?

US: You wouldn’t do that.

MB: Why not? We’ll get our arms and money from Russia. We got nothing to lose.

US: You wouldn’t do that.

MB: Not only that, but we will move our military to the border with Israel.

US: You wouldn’t do that.

MB: Really? Not only that, but since Hamas is our military arm in Gaza, we’re going to arm them to the teeth.

US: You wouldn’t do that.

MB: Are you serious? Of course we could and we will. And for a bonus, we will allow Iran access to our seaports.

US: You wouldn’t do that.

MB: Go ahead, withhold the funds. Are you sure that we would not do what we said? Don’t forget, we have Allah on our side.




So much for the Arab Spring....more like Islamic Spring.

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lavendar_star: So David what do you do think the US should do? sacrifice these people for the greater good of the peace treaty and pay up. I have to say I am split on the issue one should never give into blackmail but then to leave US citizens to rot in jail seems heartless also.

"So much for the Arab Spring....more like Islamic Spring" Your right about that in in way, but like Jack said if that's what the majority of the people want, then we have to deal with it in the West.

davidk14: .

1) The US should park 3 US Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups off the coast of Egypt and suggest that if they do not return our citizens....

a) ...the US will take the $1.5 billion dollars earmarked for Egypt and give it to Israel.

b) ...the US will freeze all Egyptian assets in the US.

c) ...money will be the least of their problems.

The US can not allow a country to hold US citizens as hostages

We can not allow a country to dictate US foreign policy especially when trying to force the US to choose sides.


2) The majority of Egyptians did vote the Muslim Brotherhood into power and we have to deal with it in the West.

a) ...then they have democratically chosen

b) ...sucks to be Egyptian what ever happens because of their poor choice. Accountability.

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lavendar_star: So your basically saying the US should show a act of aggression, wouldn't that start of some sort of war or extreme hostility in the Muslim world? but I do agree with a and b but Im not to sure about c.

davidk14: .

You can call us dogs, pigs, infidels or what ever. You can choose not to trade with us. That's fine. But you f*ck with a US citizen, you will pay the price. Period.

If we allow 'them' to take hostages and force US foreign policy, there will be no end to it.

Aggression? It's called self defense. The Israeli's went down to Uganda and saved the lives of 103 Israeli's and Jews, was that an act of aggression? Israel violated the sovereignty of Uganda and was heavily chastised in the UN for it. You think they cared?


Everyone needs to know, you mess with US citizens, you are looking for a world of hurt.

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OCD_OCD: Obama will do nothing to protect citizens just as Carter stood by when our Embassy was overrun.

Comrade_:
There's sides to every story:

\\
Egypt PM dismisses US aid threat over activists' trial
Egypt has said it will not be persuaded by the potential loss of US aid to end an ongoing investigation into foreign-funded non-governmental organisations.

Prime Minister Kamal Ganzouri said his government would "apply the law" in the case of the NGOs and "not back down".
//
-http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16949846

It seems that these "aid workers" are under investigation, may I ask why they must be treated as superior and exempted from the Egyptian law?

Well Davidk, seems as things are as it is for now, they're not falling under the pressure it seems... Hang in there buddy.


BTW are you referring to the Entebbe operation? This is not to be compared those who were held captive were held as innocent hostages not held for a court matter. I'm a bit surprise that you'd degrade the other by comparing.

davidk14: .

There are two sides to every story, The radical fundamentalist Islamist Egyptians are trying to prove to the Arab world that they can do what ever they want with Americans. These 'activists' supported the Arab spring but once they realized it was a Islamic spring and opened their mouths about it, they are now being prosecution and it's bull sh*t and the Islamists need to be taught a lesson.

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Comrade_: If the 'activists' are not guilty then there'll be nothing to hide. You see this is what happens when one starts getting involved in another country's affairs.
The US should've played along and offered to take the citizens to be tried under US court or something along this lines. For now they are in a foreign country and will be held under those laws.

Comrade_: I don't see this as proving anything though, I believe under law any country can deal with people in this way. They should've remained clean if they wanted to get involved. It'll not only be Americans though there were some who weren't American.

davidk14: ,

Jack,

You are nuts. The court they will be tried in is going to be governed by SHARIA. The outcome is already written. And if you don't believe that, you are sadly mistaken. They may not get jail time, they may not be killed, but they will get at least 50 lashings each. Why don't you volunteer to take the whippings.

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Comrade_: Americans has been whipped before, I think I can pull up an incident of a boy who got some lashes but it was either in Singapore or another Asian country.
Davidk they are in another country and are guilty of something there, no? I would abide by laws, but you can volunteer for it.

davidk14: Jack,

In Singapore, they cane people for spitting on the sidewalk. That is a lot different than whipping someone. A whip, removes the flesh. 50 lashings will remove not only the flesh, but the muscles as well.

These Americans were on the side of the Arab Spring protesters. Once again, these Americans were on the side of the Arab Spring protesters. Once the Arab Spring became the Islamic Spring and they voiced their opinion, they were arrested. And you are on the side of who? These Islamists are the enemy, not the Americans and for you to say that they are in another country that they should abide by their laws. What laws? They went from Arab Spring to Islamic Spring overnight. Your not an idiot. But then again, you hate America and what it stands for.

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