Is it the end of capitalism? (Page 67)

ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Will you be going to the Socialist Utopia of Venezuela Slasian for your hols, or do you already live there? Standing in queues must be a hoot.



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Sir Loin
Sir Loin: Ghost, you seem to have been sucked in by your govt's propaganda machine. The official unemployment figure in China is a shade under 2% The flat tax rate for all workers is 1.8% No way is anyone paying 45% ! There's no need because profits from state owned businesses go towards running the country.
OK, I'm living in a mid sized city that is reasonably affluent however I do get out into the rural areas where China's "poor" live. The streets are full of luxury European cars. The crappiest car I see is a new Buick. Most families own a VW, Audi or BMW 7 series.
By western standards average homes here are on the small side. But then who the hell needs an American style 5000 sq ft house anyway?
My students come from a wide section of the community, the kids are all well nourished, dressed in the latest fashions and all carry laptops, Ipads and top of the range cellphones.
I do see a couple of beggars on the streets most weeks who I help out, I've seen more beggars in London.
Instead of spouting right wing rhetoric why don't you visit either China or Venezuela and see for yourself?
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davidk14
davidk14: .

You Sir Loin are a propaganda super machine.

.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Sir Loin, I think you'll find that, as in other countries, China has a series of tax bands. The figure I quoted was for the top marginal tax rate for individuals. The sort of people you seem to be hobnobbing with. For the bottom feeders though the rate starts at 3%. Anyway, check it out yourself at the websites below, unless you think they're all agents of the UK government, of course:

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/china/personal-income-tax-rate

http://www.ecovis.com/focus-china/individual-income-tax-in-china-part-1-the-ground-rules/

http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2014/03/19/2013-individual-income-tax-calculations-for-china-expats.html

As for the unemployment rate, check out the sites below:

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/china/unemployment-rate

http://www.statista.com/statistics/270320/unemployment-rate-in-china/

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101433696#.

Just because you think everybody else is wrong and you are right doesn't mean you aren't talking out of your backside. Have a nice day.
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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: >>>Ghost, you seem to have been sucked in by your govt's propaganda machine.

But....you're getting your information --from the government--

ghost got his information for an independent third party- an university.

They're looking at resources other than the government. You are taking everything the government tells you as the absolute facts, and are getting pissy when anyone else does their own studies.

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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: I have no interest in arguing with Sir Loin over an issue that is easy enough to verify, the fact that China has a progressive system of income tax. The truth is, it was even higher in the past, the top rate being 50% and the bottom 5%. It could well be that for most workers the burden is relatively light due to modest incomes. That can apply anywhere. The fact though is clear, China doesn't have a flat rate income tax. If Sir Loin wishes to dispute this further he would do well to provide the necessary evidence to back up his claim.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: The income gap between rich and poor in China has surpassed that of the U.S. and is among the widest in the world. Using data from six surveys conducted by five universities in China, University of Michigan researchers calculated a measure of income inequality, the Gini coefficient, and compared it to earlier estimates. In 2010, the Gini coefficient for family income in China was about 0.55 compared with 0.45 in the U.S. In 1980, the gauge in China was 0.30. A coefficient of 0.5 or higher indicates a severe gap between rich and poor. Could this be the reason the Chinese government stopped releasing the data in 2000, when the gauge reached 0.41?
(Edited by ghostgeek)
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dave3974
dave3974: CHINA IS READY FOR REVOLUTION
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Are we talking peaceful revolution here Dave or something more bloody?
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Sir Loin
Sir Loin: I agree Dave, China is more than ready for a revolution. There has already been an attempt 25 yrs ago which resulted in the Tiananmen square massacre and right now a similar event is being planned in Hong Kong. The folks of China are fed up with the totalitarian govt. Not so much the Communist Party but the lower order govt officials and bureaucracy which runs the country. It's difficult for me to get info on the HK situation as I'm in possibly the most conservatively communist city in China and news is tightly controlled.
Ghost, there is no debate at all about tax rates in China, I told you what my tax rate is, I am not going to post copies of my pay slips. You can accept my figure or fuck off, I'm not in the habit of lying.
I don't dispute there is a big gap between rich and poor, however the average citizen in China lives a comfortable lifestyle, 53% poverty as David claims is pure bullshit. Of course I can only comment on regions I have direct experience with.
My students come from all over China and if they are representative of their home regions then folks have little to worry about.
My courses here are fairly well known and popular enough for the university to charge triple the usual tuition fees, few parents argue that it's too expensive. This semester's course is so full I've had to split the class into 6 smaller groups and there's a waiting list for next year.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: I agree Sir Loin, there is no debate about tax rates in China. The necessary information is freely available online at numerous different sites. For Chinese nationals there is a monthly tax free threshold of RMB 3500, after which a 3% tax rate kicks in. This rises in seven bands to a rate of 45%. You, being a foreign worker, enjoy a tax free threshold of RMB 4800. Of course, how much tax individual workers pay depends on what they earn. It was reported last year that in Apple's Chinese 'sweatshop' factory workers are paid just £1.12 per hour to produce iPhones and iPads for the West. I guess those poor sods don't need to worry too much about what they lose to tax.
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Sir Loin
Sir Loin: Interesting, I wasn't aware the Chinese govt published data like that. You confirm what I have been saying all along.
In practice tax rates are lower than you state. On a salary of 25000 per month I pay just under 400 in tax.
A tax free threshold of 3500 would mean almost no workers here pay income tax at all. The average salary is about 3000 per month. a wage of 1.12 per hour is bad, it gives an income of about 1700 per month, not enough to live comfortably. Apple is a US firm, arch capitalist and obviously exploiting workers here.
Samsung does something similar in Philippines.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: I don't think it's any secret that the West has used cheap labour in developing countries, including China, to benefit itself. It can be argued that it is nothing but good business practice to use the cheapest inputs one can. Of course, the sting in the tail of doing this is that it develops future competitors while running down ones own productive capacity. Short term gain and long term loss you might say. We, though, are all to blame for this. Nobody complains about fat dividends or cheap prices in the shops.
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Sir Loin
Sir Loin: I'd hardly call China a "developing" country. I'd say it was the most developed nation on earth. Fucking overdeveloped like Dolly Parton.
Good business practice does not equate to moral or ethical practice. Keeping wages low in countries like Philippines only reinforces the poverty for those families.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Sir Loin, when I said China was a developing country I was only repeating the opinion of others. As specified by the World Bank in 2012, it would appear that developing countries are defined according to their Gross National Income per capita per year. Countries with a figure below US$ 11,905 are defined as developing. On that basis, China seems to qualify as a developing nation. I guess population size has something to do with it.
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Sir Loin
Sir Loin: hmmm, well the world bank is the biggest bunch of crooks on earth and using their definitions/ data is dodgy to say the least.
I would define "developed" as more a social than financial measurement
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: By your definition I would have to agree with you Sir Loin but money rules. Something that has recently caught my attention is the pace of automation in Chinese factories. It would seem that cutting the wage bill by substituting machinery for workers is catching on in your neck of the woods as well over here. As an example, the Chinese SUV and truck maker Great Wall Motors had invested $161 million into mechanizing four plants with 1,200 robots by 2012. The average price of each robot was around $50,000 but it was calculated that within three years the cost would be completely paid for in savings from a reduced wages bill, according to the general manager. After the robots were added it would appear the number of welders at Great Wall dropped from 1,300 to around 400. Clearly, some part of China has "developed" very rapidly indeed.
(Edited by ghostgeek)
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Sir Loin
Sir Loin: yep, same disease has hit western factories too.
In fact all businesses, even my old job of weather forecasting is now done by a super computer, which is probably why the accuracy rate has turned to shit.
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Wonderbunny
Wonderbunny: Technology should be improving the standard of living for everybody, not just for the factory owners. Yes we all need to work less but it shouldn't be made so everybody's unemployed and can't make a living, while profits increase for the capitalists. We should abolish money and give people work doing conservation and other things that benefit everybody but aren't being done because there's no money in it. Clearing all the garbage out of canals and verges, for example, would make our towns and countryside far more pleasant.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Errh... perhaps it would be better if we could get people to not throw garbage into canals and verges in the first place.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: I've seen it stated that by about 2040 artificial intelligence will match that of human beings. By my reckoning that will make us humans totally redundant, so perhaps this thread should have been called "Is it the end of Humanity?" Of course, one thing may save us. The machines will need someone to consume all the crap they produce.
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ghostgeek
ghostgeek: Full employment in the future may mean non-stop consumption for all.
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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: Lol I love how ghost offers reasoned responses, and he gets self-important, dismissive replies. Loin gets bent out of shape at the idea that China is 'developing'- so Ghost points out how far China has come to developing their industry- to which Loin acts like China developing is like a disease....

You just can't win....

>>>Technology should be improving the standard of living for everybody, not just for the factory owners.

But increased automation and decreased costs means more people can have these things for less....
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Sir Loin
Sir Loin: yep, development is a disease, slowly killing the whole earth. I've worked in the environmental science field most of my life and we don't publicise most of what we find because there would be mass panic if we did. Thanks to "development" the earth has maybe 50 years max at being able to support life. It's a hell of a lot worse than just global warming!
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LiptonCambell
LiptonCambell: Hey hey- we gotta prediction in this house- Lion says either we do what they say, or it's the end of the world in 50 years!

Where'd that number come from? Their ass- but that's not the point- in 50 years, Lion will be proven completely wrong.
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