FogofWar: "Who said anything about "rushing" in? hmm are you making up as you go along."


"PS. The war in Afghanistan has nothing to do with Trinidad & Tobago..we think before we act and don't join in blindly."

You did.


"All you could've come up with is school-building. Physical buildings with no meaning in the end."

You're right….I mean; the hundreds of thousands of ANA and ANP we trained that you mention as a major factor in preventing the Taliban from retaking Afghanistan was with no meaning in the end hey? …wow!

"The people dislike outsiders, that is why they need to solve the issues from within."

As it has been a raging success for the past 33 years; not to mention the past few centuries before that saw frequent and violent regime change.

"Unfortunately, THEY don’t have the ability to stop the imminent huge loss of life. So once again the issue arises…"

The real question david is: Do we act to save thousands, or more, lives; or do we sit back and allow them to die. Caveman; despite his idea of being 'humanitarian' voices an opinion that says let them die. Personally, I could care less about helping Somalia; but it does show what happens when we withdraw like caveman suggests. Somalia is not only anarchic and outlaw; it also contributes the majority of illegal arms trades to the region; and is the leading nation for piracy. Is this really what you want to see happen caveman; so that you can say we aren't apart of something you don't understand?


I see Chrono is still in his dramaqueen phase...

davidk14: .

Taliban Hangs 8-Year-Old Son of Afghan Policeman
Published July 25, 2011
NewsCore / London Times

HELMAND PROVINCE, Afghanistan – The eight-year-old son of an Afghan policeman was kidnapped and hanged by the Taliban, officials said.

Hamid Karzai, the Afghan President, condemned the killing in Helmand Province as a "brutal and cowardly crime that is not acceptable in any religion or culture."

Afghan officials said the policeman's son was kidnapped in Gereshk, in the center of the province, last Tuesday. He was found strangled in a ditch on Friday.

Daoud Ahmadi, a spokesman for the provincial governor, said the insurgents phoned the boy's father and demanded that he surrender himself along with a number of weapons and a police pick-up truck.

The policeman, identified locally as Mohammad Daoud, worked as a driver for the local police commander in Gereshk and had access to their fleet of green Ford Rangers, The (London) Times reported.

However, locals said Daoud refused the Taliban demand without even realizing that his son was missing because he thought the call was a prank.

It was only later, when he went home and found the boy's mother in tears, that he realized the threats were real and raised the alarm.

________________________________


This is what the Afgan police, military, politicians and anyone else that opposes the Taliban can look forward to once American forces are pulled out.

These sick f*cks will murder children to fulfill their goals.


.

Comrade_: Isn't it happening (or happened) even while the Foreign troops are there?


ps. What is happening with the "peace talks" the US are/were having with the Taliban btw?

davidk14: .

Caveman said: Isn't it happening (or happened) even while the Foreign troops are there?

David responds: Just wait and see what happens “after” we leave. Many fear that it's going to be a bloodbath as the Taliban return to power.


Caveman said: ps. What is happening with the "peace talks" the US are/were having with the Taliban btw?

David responds: The only “peace talks” I’ve read about have stalled due to the fact...“they” don’t have to negotiate. “They” will not have “us” to deal with soon. Why should they negotiate? For what?

.

Comrade_: There was a 'negotiating' between the US and the Taliban in June, I don't know the current status of it now.


"The US and other foreign powers are engaged in preliminary talks with the Taliban about a possible settlement to the war in Afghanistan, the Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, has said. It is the first official confirmation of US involvement in such negotiations"

davidk14: .

An article from the Brookings Institute

(Brookings is a nonprofit public policy organization based in Washington, D.C., in the United States. One of Washington's oldest think tanks, Brookings conducts research and education in the social sciences, primarily in economics, metropolitan policy, governance, foreign policy, and global economy and development. Brookings states that its scholars "represent diverse points of view" and describes itself as non-partisan.)

From the article...



“...The Taliban correctly assesses that the momentum has been on its side. It has systematically interpreted previous overtures for strategic negotiations as a sign of weakness on the part of the counterinsurgents. In his communiqués, Mullah Omar has repeatedly indicated that discussions of negotiations in the West and Kabul indicate that the will of the Afghan government and NATO is breaking and urged his followers to fight all the harder. Thus to signal any willingness to engage in strategic negotiation with the Quetta Shura (the headquarters of Mullah Omar and his closest council) is deeply counterproductive and undermines the psychological and military effectiveness of the military surge.”



The entire article can be found at:

www.
scribd.com/doc/2 7 7 0 6 9 5 5/
Afghanistan-Negociations-and-Reconciliation-Taliban

(no spaces between numbers)
.

davidk14: .
Afghan Boy Reportedly Forced by Taliban to Step on Bomb
By Michael Yon / Journalist
Published July 26, 2011
.Zhari District, Kandahar Province, Afghanistan –

Over the past several days there have been news stories here in Afghanistan about the Taliban strangling an 8-year-old boy. The reports say that his father refused to turn over a police vehicle to the enemy, and so they murdered his son. Late last night, a courageous Afghan journalist named Mustafa Kazemi emailed an image of the boy that Mustafa said had been murdered. Afghans are enraged. They hate this behavior as much as we do. The boy appears to have had his eyes gouged out before being strangled to death.


And so last night I walked to the Headquarters of 4-4CAV here in Zhari District, the most active district in Afghanistan at this time. I asked what was going on tonight. A noncommissioned officer filled me in on the day’s events. We had been in a minor ambush resulting in a slight injury and a damaged MRAP, so I knew about that one.


But then he explained about a boy whom he said the Taliban forced to step on an IED just down the road from here. Apparently, according to Afghans, the Taliban may have been testing a new bomb made from a soda bottle. The boy’s name is Jalil, and our people estimate that Jalil is 6 to 8-years-old. Jalil was picking grapes with his brother when the Taliban, according to reporting, told the boy to step on the bomb. It blew off his right leg below the knee, leaving hamburger on the stump, and fractured his femur. Afghans brought Jalil to the nearby American base called COP Kolk, where 4-4CAV Soldiers treated him. A helicopter took Jalil and his father to Kandahar Airfield for advanced treatment.

.

FogofWar: David; we will be seeing a spike in these actions from the Taliban as we continue to withdraw. Caveman; there is no negotiations. Think about it this way:

You belong to a political movement. A foreign political force is aiding your nation in turning against your cause. They tell you that they will be leaving in a few months; and then say they want to negotiate terms that will limit you to nothing more than a single voice among thousands; that will not be heard. Knowing they are leaving anyways; would you agree to negotiations?

People in Afghanistan don't watch the news. They don't read news papers. They know only what they see happen; and what they are told from their neighbours. As far as they know; ISAF forces are backing off so that ANA and ANP forces can take control. If the Taliban starts stepping up killing innocent people; even children; and blowing up more targets; then the people of Afghanistan will see this; as we withdraw. They don't understand that we are withdrawing anyways; they will see it as the Taliban regaining strength that even the west cannot resist. This is the biggest tactic of insurgencies in the ME when we are withdrawing. The US saw it in Iraq as well; and they will see it in Afghanistan also.

...why negotiate when they can convince their people they won?

Comrade_: Fog put your panties back on and settle down. It was broadcast that the US were negotiating with the Taliban. You have internet, google and you'd see the headlines.

FogofWar: I'm not saying the US wasn't trying to...I am simply asking you if you are dumb enough to believe that the Taliban will negotiate when they will see their terms met when we withdraw anyways?

Comrade_: There was a 'negotiating' between the US and the Taliban in June, I don't know the current status of it now.


"The US and other foreign powers are engaged in preliminary talks with the Taliban about a possible settlement to the war in Afghanistan, the Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, has said. It is the first official confirmation of US involvement in such negotiations"


Fog: Caveman there were no negotiating.
===========================================================

Fog, if you have nothing to add then please don't feel the need to type. My statement was pretty clear to David.

FogofWar: Caveman said: "Fog: Caveman there were no negotiating."

…I love how willing you are to dig yourself deeper into a hole.

Fogofwar said: "David; we will be seeing a spike in these actions from the Taliban as we continue to withdraw. Caveman; there is no negotiations." [1]

Note: Fog did NOT say there 'were no negotiating'. Fog DID say, 'there IS NO negotiating.'

…clearly caveman failed to read the remaining theoretical scenario I demonstrated for him; just as he failed to read the initial statement he attempted; albeit poorly; to quote.

I made no mention that the US did not; has not; is not attempting to negotiate. I simply said it is NOT a negotiation; because they will be giving the Taliban exactly what the Taliban wants regardless of whether the Taliban accepts the terms of the negotiation or not.

Again; let me ask you this caveman. If I walked up to you and started yelling at you; demanding that you give me all your money; your car, your home, everything you own…..but that if you didn't; I would stop yelling in 2 minutes and leave anyways….would you do it?

It's not a negotiation if only one side is willing to negotiate:

Negotiation: (noun) Discussion aimed at reaching an agreement [2]

The action or process of negotiating or being negotiated [3a]


Negotiate: (verb) to confer with another so as to arrive at the settlement of some matter [3b]
To arrange for or bring about through conference, discussion, and compromise [3b]


[1] http://www.wireclub.com/Forums/ViewTopic.aspx?ForumId=772986&ParentId=1339773&Page=5

[2] http://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&q=negotiation&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei= CSk4TpjKNK_FsQLVvuQd&ved=0CBQQkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=796c*******5f62f&biw=1263&bih=609
[3] meriam-webster
[a] http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/negotiation
[b] http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/negotiate?show=0&t=*******564

FogofWar: Caveman said: "Fog, if you have nothing to add then please don't feel the need to type. My statement was pretty clear to David."

Caveman; if you don't like what others present to you; then feel free to argue against it. You cannot hold those who present more and correct information to you at fault for your lack of understanding on the subject in which you have zero involvement. As a soldier whose nation is currently involved in the conflict and the withdrawal thereof; I have a lot more to add than you. Your statement was clear to David; as was both David's and mine to you; in which your response was: "Fog, if you have nothing to add then please don't feel the need to type. My statement was pretty clear to David."

If you don't want to debate; then perhaps you should not come on here.

Comrade_: Fog I have no problem debate but when someone has nothing substantial to add but instead copy & pastes without adding/refuting what was typed, there lies my problem. It seems you carry your 'butt-hurt' into other threads. I made a simple remark to David, my statement is true (you can google it, I'm sure you found the newspaper articles) so what is your point? Not everyone have the time to baby-sit you.

Back to the where I was.

I will check out the website David and read on the updates of the talks with the Taliban.

FogofWar: With every post you demonstrate your continual lack of comprehension; or maybe it is just a lack of functioning braincells. I did not copy and paste genius. Way to ignore answering the question I posed your 'negotiation'. How convenient.

Comrade_: @DavidK
I checked the article but it wasn't the one I was looking for. I was referring to this report:
Recently this year in June 18, 2011.

\\
"The US is engaged in talks with the Taliban, Afghan President Hamid Karzai has said, in the first high-level confirmation of US involvement.
Mr Karzai said that "foreign military and especially the US itself" were involved in peace talks with the group.
Earlier this month, US Defence Secretary Robert Gates said there could be political talks with the Taliban by the end of this year.
The US is due to start withdrawing its 97,000 troops from Afghanistan in July.
It aims to gradually hand over all security operations to Afghan security forces by 2014.

...Paradoxically, he says, the greater the likelihood of peace talks, the more Nato and the Taliban will press their military campaigns in a bid to ensure they go into negotiations with an advantage.

...The Taliban's official position regarding peace talks is that it will only negotiate once international forces leave Afghanistan, and that it will only talk to the Afghan government...

" //
From the BBC's article open on their website.

(If you need the link to the article I can message it to you)

There is more to the article, I thought everyone was aware of it.

You can find other sources by just googling the phrase: 'US negotiations with the Taliban'

dw, I will search the current status but I don't think anything was said after this since it seems the Taliban is waiting for when the troops pull out of Afghanistan. I'll search online to see if anything changed/was added since July was a while ago.

*******-*******-*******----

If anyone have any complaints/ suggestion then please take it up with the US Government, I simply stated what was/is/will/may be done as was reported.

FogofWar: As did both David and myself, and as we both stated, the Taliban is refusing to negotiate. Why would they?

Aryaa: @FogOfWar

Again; I strongly advice you to get an education on the topic before venturing down a path you do not want to take. Religious and ethnic cleansing was a policy of the Taliban under their Sharia Law. It wasn't just 2000 year old statues they blew up; it was Jewish synagogues, Buddhist temples; priests; rabbis, and even Islamic people who refused to accept their strict version of Islam. The Taliban murdered countless people based on their faith; and blew up countless infrastructure.

One policy under the Taliban was the rights of women under Islamic Law. Women were not allowed to leave the house without a male supervisor. Women were not allowed to speak in public. Women were also not allowed to attend school. The parents of little girls who refused to accept this belief faced dire consequences.

----
You should know that it was USA that initially supported Taliban inspite of its islamic fundamentalist ideology. The reason was to gain advantage by interfering with Afganistan's internal politics. Advantage was to have a strong base in Afganistan to counteract China/Russia.

First you feed a monster, and then the monster becomes too strong that it becomes pain in arse for you. That is what has happened.
In all this bloody political game, thousands of innocent people were killed.

No...you should come out of that mental attitude that you can bring about any change or improve the life of people in Afganistan...THIS WAY.
Pull out from Afganistan and if 'Noble Cause' is in your mind...find out some other way to help the people.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban

United States

Foreign powers, including the United States, briefly supported the Taliban, hoping it would restore order in the war-ravaged country. For example, it made no comment when the Taliban captured Herat in 1995, and expelled thousands of girls from schools.[176] These hopes faded as the Taliban began killing unarmed civilians, targeting ethnic groups (primarily Hazaras), and restricting the rights of women.[102] In late 1997, American Secretary of State Madeleine Albright began to distance the U.S. from the Taliban. The next year, the American-based oil company Unocal withdrew from negotiations on pipeline construction from Central Asia.[177]

FogofWar: Aryaa said: "@FogOfWar

Again; I strongly advice you to get an education on the topic before venturing down a path you do not want to take. Religious and ethnic cleansing was a policy of the Taliban under their Sharia Law. It wasn't just 2000 year old statues they blew up; it was Jewish synagogues, Buddhist temples; priests; rabbis, and even Islamic people who refused to accept their strict version of Islam. The Taliban murdered countless people based on their faith; and blew up countless infrastructure."

Aryaa; I strongly advise you to take the time to read through posts before jumping to the conclusions you have. Before you get into a debate of how much you know; do take the time to find out who you are debating with. Thank you.

I know what the Sharia Law implemented by the Taliban was; and I have, countless times on here; stated these policies.

Aryaa said: "You should know that it was USA that initially supported Taliban inspite of its islamic fundamentalist ideology."

Aryaa; again, I strongly advise you to get an education on the topic before venturing down a path you do not want to take. The US had no part in supporting the Taliban; get your facts straight…and perhaps you should seek real facts; and not just wikipedia.


Aryaa said: "Foreign powers, including the United States, briefly supported the Taliban, hoping it would restore order in the war-ravaged country."

Foreign powers discussed the Taliban. There were those who supported them (In the US UNOCAL lobbied for support of the Taliban; Clinton refused to); and there was also sides who opposed them. Nothing got beyond the table in terms of support. In fact; the opposite occurred; and the US; among countless nations; lobbied to the UN to put sanctions on the Taliban; to which the UN responded in doing.


I couldn't help but notice in your wikipedia blog it failed to get the correct translation of the word Taliban. Taliban does not mean "Students"; it means "Seekers"; and you can ask anyone from Afghanistan that one; like I have.

Aryaa: Aryaa; again, I strongly advise you to get an education on the topic before venturing down a path you do not want to take. The US had no part in supporting the Taliban; get your facts straight…and perhaps you should seek real facts; and not just wikipedia.


Yes, US govt. supported Taliban at first. Afghanisatan is a neighboring country ..and what happens there affects us and so these facts are known to us.
Real facts? No one can seek real facts...not even you...if you know what I mean.
Newspapers and TV reports are my source. I posted Wikipedia links because that is what most members here accept as authentic information.

Comrade_: Who cares what you and David say on the matter? I didn't ask for opinions and I didn't state an opinion, I asked for the current status of a topic that was in the headlines. Which I found. The article clearly pointed out the intentions (or intention) of the US Government...if you have a problem with wording then speak to the sourced newspapers/ log a complain with BBC & the US Government, write a letter expressing your very important concerns.
It is a democracy after all.

Gracias.

PS. And don't act as if you don't use Wikipedia as your source material, when you've too used it in error.

davidk14: .

Aryaa: @FogofWar

just google this - did US support taliban
btw. I am not going to argue further on that issue....it will be waste of time and energy.

The original question:
There are risks in both options for USA and rest of the world too.
It is difficult to decide which option will be better...but may be US prez is doing the right thing.

introspec: Reiterated opinion.........

Does USA need to pull out of Afghanistan? Yes!!

If not now, when? Can US police middle east, other chronically troubled areas forever?....No!!

Recent political debacle---sending one helicopter with Seal team 6 on ostensible rescue mission.... Afghanis mixed bag. Probable ambush. And, we lost a whole Seal team.....

An entire Seal team

davidk14: .

If I were a conspiracy theorist...

Isn’t it interesting that 20 or so members of Seal Team 6 that were killed in a very rural part of Afghanistan were involved someway with the death of OBL? A conspiracy theorist might try to conclude that ‘someone’ is trying to eliminate any eye witnesses who might in the future write a book which might suggest that OBL was not in the compound but that the OBL raid was ‘designed’ to ‘create the impression’ for political gain of the current US Administration?

But then, that’s absolutely nuts and irresponsible to even consider. Right?

.