Np19: the problem is fear, they are a minority but have been known to cause mayhem, people who speak out against them normally get killed and not just that alot of muslims may not agree with what they do but they dont have the tools to combat them verbally. these people are noramlly well versed in the quran and traditions but they interpret it wrong. if alot of the laymen and muslims who are against them tried to debate with them on the issue i dont think they'd get far as the extremeist would win due to their knowledge they posess.
what needs to be done is that muslims should learn more about these people and their roots and also understand the verses they twist and misinterpretate so its easy to combat them. the issue sadly is alot of muslims dont agree with them but havent taken the time to learn the art of combating their ideology.

davidk14: .

I think you better think of something real quick. The Americans and others fighting these nut jobs are going to disengage them militarily shortly and you will need to figure out how to 'disarm' their rhetoric or you may find yourselves slaves to a new order and as history has shown. slavery
isn't nice. Do you know what I am saying to you?

.

Np19: yes and i agree with you 100% its a scary thought and action is needed asap

davidk14: .
Asassin,

Just a thought for you….

6 million individuals thought God would save them. They allowed their pacifism to dictate their fate. We know how that turned out. This crime was done by ‘external forces’.

Islam, considering the 99.9% are the true peace loving believers and the 1/10th of one per cent are the deviant elements of the religion.

Consider the 1/10th of one percent the cancer.

If the cancer is not cut out, how much of the 99.9% are going to be affected?

This cancer will grow. The US and others have tried ‘surgery’ to eliminate the disease but the disease is very strong and a lot of the innocent have been killed trying to cut the cancer out.

The ‘body’ must create its own internal anti-bodies and eliminate the disease with the least amount of ‘damage’ to the healthy.

Time is running out.


Just a thought.

.

.

hurdle2: Wearing a hijab should not offense anyone but not wearing clothes should offense everyone. That's is the truth and you all know that.

hurdle2: @davidk14: David, its partially true but remember who created these extremist?? Guess who?

cuarl: Let me explain that it is not the piece of cloth that some people find offensive. Its what it represent. -Not Islam- but what can be seen as injustice to women.

Say every woman of a certain organisation have to wear a dog-leach with a tag that says "please return me to Mr.xxxx"

Would you say that is less offensive then going around in small clothes?

Im not saying Hijab is like that. Im just tired of people seeing Hijab as a simple piece of cloth.

spankdmonkey: Well Assasin i must agree you have enlightened me a bit .It is a pity that most muslims do not read the text and interpret it the way you do .I have a son and daughter who are muslims that is their choice .I dont agree but they are their own person .If i may ask you two questions though? and maybe you can help me to make sense of two things i do not understand .One is i agree that women and men have a right to wear what they want that girl should not be attacked for wearing her hijab not that i like them wearing it ,But i dont have to wear it only see it so i can live with that i seen you in a earlier post refer to it as a religious dress yet that is not true from what i have read over the years ....

the two questions i want to ask one is i have seen sheiks and spiritual emirs in not just my country but around the world preach their religion with hate and say it is okay to kill infidels .Im sure you agree some do this .so these people are equivalent to being priests why isnt the muslim and islamic population jumping up and down and denouncing these religious extremists .that preach their hate .Seriously if i heard a priest or the pope start saying things like kill muslims i would be horified and denounce him and so would the world .

The second question is this and i have also read and seen quoted about mohumad your spiritual leader in history of his wars it has been stated that he had sex with underage children and even had a wife 13 years old ,i could never follow a religion that its leader had children as wives .I know a lot of crap is written about all religions and basically we do not know what is the truth and what is not the same can be said for the bible so imnot picking on islam but certainly questioning its ethics .you have helped me a bit to understand islam better in a few of your posts and i was impressed with your interpretations of the quran ,so what is your beliefs about mohamid and raping and marrying 11 12 and 13 year old kids ?? I thing whaty i read from memory refered to them in the quran as incubines ,please explain if you can just so maybe i can understand if ive been fed wrong information thanks

Np19: hey spankdmonkey.
right the answer to your first question is that there are alot of sheikhs who are preaching the sort of nonsense you have pointed out and yes they are a problem. the problem we face in places like the middle east and south asia is that if you openly dennounce them then the chances are they will murder you as they consider you an infadel. what we are finding is that alot of people have now started to debate the issue of hate preaching. the only issue is that alot of laymen have already been brainwashed into believing what these hate preachers are saying is true. the new imams and shiekhs especially in the west are now standing up against these preachers and exposing them and their belief. its not an easy task but there are many sound shiekhs now appearing and explaining the issue with proofs that ultimatley will destroy the hate preachers beliefs. its unfortunate that its the hate monger shiekhs that always get the exposure and the ones who are for peace dont get even a mention in the media. however there are many muslims who are rising up and now preaching the true islam and not the terror interpretation of it.

your second question is a good question. first of all mohammed didnt rape any kids nor are there any verses in the quran on the subject. There is absoloutley nothing that says he raped any child and this is just something someone has made up. the propehts marrige to aisha is a long subject and but ill try my best to do justice on this matter.

One must first understand that 1400 years ago was very different than now, times have changed and so have humans. 1400 years ago it was something very common to marry young girls, in fact they were not considered young girls, and rather they were considered young women back then. It is a historic fact that girls from the ages of 9 to 14 were being married in Europe, Asia, and Africa, in fact even in the United States girls at the age of 10 were also being married just more than a century ago.
Yet with these facts no historian claims that all these people were sick perverts, historians would call anyone who made such a claim to be arrogant and very stupid who has no grasp or understanding of history. below i have posted a link that will show you how common it was in the roman empire days:

http://www.roman-emperors.org/aggiefran.htm

The fact that it was a completely acceptable thing can also be seen from the response of the pagans at that time. No Muslim or even pagan objected to the marriage because it was widely practiced. And even until today in 3rd world countries (Muslims and non-Muslims), little girls as young as 9 or 10 do get married. Anyway, the reason no one objected was to the Prophet’s marriage was:1-People used to have very short life-spans in Arabia. They used to live between 40 to 60 years maximum. So it was only normal and natural for girls to be married off at ages 9 or 10 or similar.2-Marriage for young girls was widely practiced among Arabs back then, and even today in many non-Muslim and Muslim countries

Prophet Muhammad’s marriage with Aisha was 100% legal and acceptable by all laws and Divine Religions. It is important to know that girls during the Biblical and Islamic days used to be married off at young ages when they either had their first periods, or their breasts start showing off. In other words, when they turn into “women”, then they get married off. It was quite different for men on the other hand, because physical power and the ability of living an independent life had always been and will always be a mandatory requirement for men to have in life. So men waited much longer than women in terms of getting married. The guy had to develop both his body and mind before he was ready for marriage. That is why you see girls as young as 9 or 10 were married to men as old as 30 or even older. The culture back then and in many of the world countries today is quite different than what you live in today.And there is no divine law which is broken in marrying a girl of nine at any costs.

A great misconception prevails as to the age at which Aisha was taken in marriage by the Prophet. Ibn Sa‘d has stated in the Tabaqat that when Abu Bakr [father of Aisha] was approached on behalf of the Holy Prophet, he replied that the girl had already been betrothed to Jubair, and that he would have to settle the matter first with him. This shows that Aisha must have been approaching majority at the time. Again, the Isaba, speaking of the Prophet’s daughter Fatima, says that she was born five years before the Call and was about five years older than Aisha. This shows that Aisha must have been about ten years at the time of her betrothal to the Prophet, and not six years as she is generally supposed to be. This is further borne out by the fact that Aisha herself is reported to have stated that when the chapter [of the Holy Quran] entitled The Moon, the fifty-fourth chapter, was revealed, she was a girl playing about and remembered certain verses then revealed. Now the fifty-fourth chapter was undoubtedly revealed before the sixth year of the Call. All these considerations point to but one conclusion, viz., that Aisha could not have been less than ten years of age at the time of her nikah, which was virtually only a betrothal. And there is one report in the Tabaqat that Aisha was nine years of age at the time of nikah. Again it is a fact admitted on all hands that the nikah of Aisha took place in the tenth year of the Call in the month of Shawwal, while there is also preponderance of evidence as to the consummation of her marriage taking place in the second year of Hijra in the same month, which shows that full five years had elapsed between the nikah and the consummation. Hence there is not the least doubt that Aisha was at least nine or ten years of age at the time of betrothal, and fourteen or fifteen years at the time of marriage.

The compiler of the famous Hadith collection Mishkat al-Masabih, Imam Wali-ud-Din Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Khatib, who died 700 years ago, has also written brief biographical notes on the narrators of Hadith reports. He writes under Asma, the older daughter of Abu Bakr:

“She was the sister of Aisha Siddiqa, wife of the Holy Prophet, and was ten years older than her. … In 73 A.H. … Asma died at the age of one hundred years.”
This would make Asma 28 years of age in 1 A.H., the year of the Hijra, thus making Aisha 18 years old in 1 A.H. So Aisha would be 19 years old at the time of the consummation of her marriage, and 14 or 15 years old at the time of her nikah. It would place her year of birth at four or five years before the Call.

IN THE BIBLE

Mary and Joseph
The most famous marriage in Christianity is no doubt that of Mary, Jesus’ mother, with Joseph. While the following details are not in the canonical Gospels in the Bible, it appears from other early Christian writings (known as apocryphal writings) that Mary was twelve years old when the temple elders decided to find a husband for her. They selected the husband by drawing lots, and Joseph whom they chose was an elderly man, being according to some accounts ninety years old. The husband was selected and Mary was handed over to him, and she played no part in his selection.

These accounts are summed up in the Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913 edition, which is available online, as follows:

“It will not be without interest to recall here, unreliable though they are, the lengthy stories concerning St. Joseph’s marriage contained in the apocryphal writings. When forty years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha or Escha by some, Salome by others; they lived forty-nine years together and had six children … A year after his wife’s death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age, Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the choice God had made of Joseph …”

Although these apocryphal accounts are not now accepted by many Christians, and the Catholic Encyclopedia says that they “are void of authority”, yet it also speaks of their influence as follows:

“they nevertheless acquired in the course of ages some popularity; in them some ecclesiastical writers sought the answer to the well-known difficulty arising from the mention in the Gospel of the Lord’s brothers; from them also popular credulity has, contrary to all probability, as well as to the tradition witnessed by old works of art, retained the belief that St. Joseph was an old man at the time of marriage with the Mother of God.”

However, these accounts are accepted by the Eastern churches. The website of the Ukrainian Orthodoxy has an article on this subject entitled An Elderly Joseph which agrees with the presentation in the apocryphal writings “of Joseph as an elderly man, a widower with adult children”. It concludes:

“The Christian East’s picture of Joseph as a courageous, faithful, God-centred elderly widower rings true.”

While the Western Christian churches may not accept these accounts as authentic, the Eastern churches in Europe do accept that Mary was 12 years old and Joseph a widower 90 years old when they married. Moreover, there is nothing in the Gospels of the New Testament to contradict these accounts, and the Gospel stories are not at all inconsistent with these ages for Mary and Joseph

Appendix: The Infancy Gospel of James, Chapter 8 verse 2 to Chapter 9 verse 11

“When she [Mary] turned twelve, a group of priests took counsel together, saying, ‘Look, Mary has been in the temple of the Lord twelve years. What should we do about her now, so that she does not defile the sanctuary of the Lord our God?’ And they said to the high priest, ‘You have stood at the altar of the Lord. Go in and pray about her. And if the Lord God reveals anything to you, we will do it.’ And the priest went in taking the vestment with twelve bells into the holy of holies and prayed about her. Suddenly, an angel of the Lord stood before him, saying, ‘Zachariah, Zachariah, depart from here and gather the widowers of the people and let each one carry a staff. And the one whom the Lord God points out with a sign, she will be his wife.’ So the heralds went out to the whole surrounding area of Judea and the trumpet of the Lord rang out and all the men rushed in.

Throwing down his axe, Joseph went out to meet them. And after they had gathered together with their rods, they went to the high priest. After receiving everyone’s rod, the high priest went into the temple and prayed. When he was finished with the prayer, he took the rods and went out and gave them to each man, but there was no sign among them. Finally, Joseph took his rod. Suddenly, a dove came out of the rod and stood on Joseph’s head. And the high priest said, ‘Joseph! Joseph! You have been chosen by lot to take the virgin into your own keeping.’ And Joseph replied, saying, ‘I have sons and am old, while she is young. I will not be ridiculed among the children of Israel.’ And the high priest said, ‘Joseph, fear the Lord your God and remember what God did to Dathan and Abiron and Kore, how the earth split open and swallowed them because of their rebellion. Now fear God, Joseph, so that these things do not happen in your house.’ Fearing God, Joseph took her into his own possession.”

Np19: sorry spankdmonkey about such a long reply, i had to copy and paste a few things also so i appologise for that. the above is wirth reading, in all fairness its a subject matter that i could write a whole book to but time does not permit me to do so, but if you have any further questions on the matter please reply and ill do my best.

lavendar_star: Just because something was done back in the days doesn't make it right i guess thats why in todays societies we have developed our moral and intellectual conscious regarding this matter. As a female I know for a fact no girl in anytime in human history can be considered a woman at the age of 9-15 both mentality and physically, thats why we have evolved our attitudes to females. This is why teenagers pregnancy all over the world today is still highly dangerous for mother and child are bodies i.e are hip development etc is not ready for us to give birth) the concern that I have that today is young girls/women today are still being married off to older men despite our attitudes changing. Which in my opinion is no different to pedophilia

Also as you have indicated the ancient world was considerably sexist to females and women had no ownership of themselves, yet again this practices still continues today in some societies i.e Saudi Arabia, Iran etc. Also that men were considered superior to women.

I understand your counter argument but none the less in my opinion it was still wrong no matter the context of time, as slavery was wrong and that also was acceptable in the ancient world and is still continues today. Interesting but disturbing post as I could not imagine being a girl (as children haven't changed much over the centuries both physically or mentality) and having relations with a older and physically developed man. , (i know the concept of childhood was considerably different but still. It was wrong then and it is wrong now, I think I talk of good experience actually being once a girl who gone through the changes and we are not women yet that was just plan ignorance of the Ancient times.



I

Np19: you imagine what you want. well its not accepted now, the people knew no different then. like its not normal today it was normal then. so they did no wrong based on the times they were living in.

lavendar_star: Thats your opinion and my opinion that it was wrong just like with slavery. we can agree to disagree. thank you and I did read the post hence my responds. P.S im not religious either. take care

Np19: no probs ur entitled to ur opinion. but please read the full post i above. it is rather interesting. i know its like an essay lol im sorry it was rather long, its worth a read though

spankdmonkey: assasin is right in them times it was considered normal that does not mean it was normal no one is saying that ,but it was not against the law .Even some 100 years ago girls as young as 13 were being married in the western era as most cowboys had short life spans .Of course it wasnt .
todays people are more educated and i can assure you it was men that made them rules in them days and girls had no choice but to obey which in itself is not right either ,A lot of these young girls died giving birth .. It was a good post Assasin and do understand the difference in eras ..And also understand your point of view Caramel very much so

Np19: no probs guys. if i can ever be of any asisstence just drop me a message

cuarl: Hey assasin thanks for good posts.
A general question about muslims:
Many muslims I know they never go pray unless they really have to, they drink alcohol if they get the chance, they screw around with girls as often as possible. And of course all of them smoke. But offer them anything that might have pork in it and they are horrified just looking at it!
Everyone is ofcourse entitled to believe in whatever way they want but why is the whole pork thing so important when they dont follow anything else in there. Its like the icon of Islam, "As long as I dont eat pork its okay"

RahGuzaR: @ Cural
You are right, there are million of muslims like me who do not follow the Islam properly, we have to pray five times a day but we don't but it does not mean that Islam as a religion has got things wrong, its us muslims who are not choosing the right path.

I agree with you that a lot of muslims drink alcohol and when its about food they start looking for Halal shop but these people does not represent Islam neither the real muslims.

If you do not know how to drive and still driving a Mercedes, you will eventually bump into some thing, The man should be blamed for the accident not the car.

I am sure assassin Khan will come up with a better explanation since i'm not good with words.

cuarl: Yes im not blaming Islam. Im just curious why this pork thing is so important

davidk14: Interesting question.

Np19: The fact that consumption of pork is prohibited in Islam is well known. The following points explain various aspects of this prohibition:

1. Pork prohibited in Qur'ân
The Qur'ân prohibits the consumption of pork in no less than 4 different places. It is prohibited in 2:173, 5:3, 6:145 and 16:115.

"Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah." [Al-Qur'ân 5:3]

The above verses of the Holy Qur'ân are sufficient to satisfy a Muslim as to why pork is forbidden.

2. Pork prohibited in the Bible

The Christian is likely to be convinced by his religious scriptures. The Bible prohibits the consumption of pork, in the book of Leviticus
"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you". "Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you." [Leviticus 11:7-8]

Pork is also prohibited in the Bible in the book of Deuteronomy

"And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass." [Deuteronomy 14:8]

A similar prohibition is repeated in the Bible in the book of Isaiah chapter 65 verse 2-5.

3. Consumption of pork causes several diseases
The other non-Muslims and atheists will agree only if convinced through reason, logic and science. Eating of pork can cause no less than seventy different types of diseases. A person can have various helminthes like roundworm, pinworm, hookworm, etc. One of the most dangerous is Taenia Solium, which is in lay man’s terminology called tapeworm. It harbours in the intestine and is very long. Its ova i.e. eggs, enter the blood stream and can reach almost all the organs of the body. If it enters the brain it can cause memory loss. If it enters the heart it can cause heart attack, if it enters the eye it can cause blindness, if it enters the liver it can cause liver damage. It can damage almost all the organs of the body.

Another dangerous helminthes is Trichura Tichurasis. A common misconception about pork is that if it is cooked well, these ova die. In a research project undertaken in America, it was found that out of twenty-four people suffering from Trichura Tichurasis, twenty two had cooked the pork very well. This indicates that the ova present in the pork do not die under normal cooking temperature.

4. Pork has fat building material
Pork has very little muscle building material and contains excess of fat. This fat gets deposited in the vessels and can cause hypertension and heart attack. It is not surprising that over 50% of Americans suffer from hypertension.

5. Pig is one of the filthiest animals on earth
The pig is one of the filthiest animals on earth. It lives and thrives on muck, faeces and dirt. It is the best scavenger that I know that God has produced. In the villages they don’t have modern toilets and the villagers excrete in the open air. Very often excreta is cleared by pigs.

Some may argue that in advanced countries like Australia, pigs are bred in very clean and hygienic conditions. Even in these hygienic conditions the pigs are kept together in sties. No matter how hard you try to keep them clean they are filthy by nature. They eat and enjoy their own as well as their neighbour’s excreta.

Np19: JUST A QUICK INTERESTING CLIP IN REGARDS TO PORK FROM A CHRISTIAN POINT OF VIEW

Np19: why some muslims dont follow all the laws and only chose to follow what they desire comes down to weak faith. i honestly wouldnt be able to answer for each indvidual but RahGuz'z explanation sums it all up

Sarcastic Dots: Just going way off topic here. Did you see Mixed Britannia on BBC Two last night, Khan? Cardiff was on there. It taught me a lot about race and religious relationships in Cardiff that I wasn't aware of.

cuarl: That does not explain why many muslims has this thing with pork as their only "religious rule".

Yes I know the bible also says that pigs should not be eaten. Yet you see most Christians chew down their hot dogs with extra mayo on a daily basis. Because it doesnt make sense in modern times.

Dont say pork is any more unhealthy then any other meat. The rest of the world eats pork daily and worms can inhabit any type of animal that eats grass or animal that eats an animal that has worms. Not just pigs.

And by that reasoning smoking/drugs should be strongly prohibited since that causes early deaths and is destructive to your body. But just looking at the world id say muslims but be the heaviest smokers out there. Its doesnt make any sense. But maybe its just the simplest way to be "religious" so many, as you say weak believers, choose that way.