Iranian girl attacked in UK over hijab (Page 4)
Np19: we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. ...” [Quran 5:32]
[Quran 4:90]”...Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.”
O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. (109:1-6)
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians, - any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, - on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (5:69)
cuarl: If the qur'an now is so peacefull as you describe it then whats up with all the people that kill in the name of god or allah? Wouldnt he smite a follower that does not follow rather then a nonbeliever that does not follow?
Np19: yes you are right. the problem is that you have many people who are extreme and they dont fully understand the context or the rulings and they go out and commit murder thinking they are doing what the quran says, but they are wrong. they brainwash people into believing that killing innocent people is permitted when it is not. this is the danger, when you read the quran or any scripture you must learn it from those who have knowledge otherwise you will make grave mistakes.
let me give you an example in pakistan you haave the tehreeq e taliban who actually convince young people that it is ok for them to go and kill fellow muslims and innocent people.. and this is wrong and i totally disagree with it.
what you see on the t.v is brainwashed groups who are comitting terror in the name of islam and this is not allowed.
these people who kill innocent people or kill themselves will not be able to enter heaven and will be in hell forever. its a shame that these extremists get all the exposure and the true muslims are condemed thanks to these lunatics who think they are doing gods work.
i see on the t.v many times they quote verses from the quran without understanding the context and why it was revealed and what it actually means.. anyway im a muslim and i believe if you are doing jihad you do it with those who are attacking you and not the innocent people who have nothing to do with it.
on the day of judgement god will be the judge and these murderers and bandits who kill in the name of allah will be judged and punished for the anarchy they have caused by not following the rules and killing innocents.
Np19: cuarl when you ever get a chance read up about a group called the khawarij and what you will find is the similarity between them and the fake jihadist of this time. infact ill sum up their description for you
They would recite the Quran but it won't go down their throats.
They will exit the religion like an arrow does from the prey.
Their paryers and fasting would seem better then others.
They would talk (in such a manner) as if their words are the best among the creatures.
They would have shaven heads.
They will appear from the east.
The Khawarij raised this slogan, There is no command but that of Allah, which was correct but used for a wrong cause. (allah hu akbar)
Ali (may Allah be pleased be with them) fought the Khawarij and killed them.
Killing the Khawarij would be rewarded on the day of judgment.
The Khawarij would emerge when the there is dissension amongst the Muslimeen
Please respond to this:
"The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."
Can you explain what you think this means.
braveheart32: @asassin_khan..would be nice if you could throw light on what David posted above.Please enlighten us!
Np19: yes david this is a hadith and whats dangerous is when you read a translation of a hadith as it loses its actual meaning. the scholars have all agreed that the above hadith is referring to the jews that will make mischief on the earth in other words the zionists.
we believe that in the end days the christians will unite with the muslims and they will fight the jews/zionists, once again even in this situation the rules of war would still remain so no innocent jews,women, chillldren and non-combatants would not be attacked, based on the rules of war in islam. the above hadith is reffering to the zionists who will cause war and destruction and not every single jew.
likewise there is many hadith reffering to certain muslims who will also cause anarchy on the earth who will also be destroyed.
once again you may find many hate mongers who will use this hadith to spread hatred amongst the laymen without actually explaining the true meaning of the hadith.
braveheart32: @asassin_khan: I hope you see how dangerous the above is in a world like ours.wriitings like the above are responsible for the attrocities been commited by islamist fundamentalist.It speaks of hatred, intolerance and violence.The Hadith as you call it does not clearly make the specific you gave and thus it is very arguable that it was meant differently.It only reinforces by conviction that such writtings can never come from a loving creator.More likely from men who want to advance their own personal selfish goals.
Np19: braveheart32 when you study the modern jihadist what you will find none of them have studied the full rules of war or what is permissable and what is not. in islam we are explicitly told that we should not make any rulings on a subject or issue without consulting those in authority amongst us meaning the scholars. what we have witnessed in modern times is poeple no longer refer back to the scholars and they read what they want and make their own rulings, this is why some jihadist movements have given islam a bad name. it is never allowe dfor any laymen to read the quran or hadith and make their own interpretations which is sadly what is happening these days
braveheart32: @asassin_khan:It is indeed sad hence those of you who know the distinction should try as hard as possible to enlighten young muslims about this dangerous thin line so they can grow up been genuine ambassadors.The killing of innocent people via suicide bombing and other attacks makes it ever difficult for people to want to empathise with Islam.This is the real cause of the fear people have of any form of Islamic practice
I try to keep an open mind towards any religion because I have come to realise that the creator does not look at humans according to our color , creed or religion rather he looks at the heart.Hence I find it impossible to respect any group or affiliates who even remotely support the killing of innocent people or any form of violence in the advancement of their cause.
I know there are lots of good muslims( my sisters husband is a muslim and we are very good togehter) but as my people say, when the chicken is in the pot, you cant tell the color of their feathers anymore because they all have no feathers!
(Edited by braveheart32)
Np19: yeah braveheart you are right, there is alot of people who are trying to help the youth that are getting caught up in this mess and thank god there are many who have dennounced their ideology now, the issue is in places in the middle east and places like pakistan where these kids are taught jihad from the day they enter school, they are proven to be much harder to help, if you say anything against what they believe then in their eyes you are an apostate and therefore should be killed also.
we believe that these are signs of the day of judgment where there will be much anarchy and confusion.
people read the holy scripts and think they are able to make their own rulings, they refer back to old rulings which were for that specific time only. verses of the quran can be misunderstood and dangerous if one wishes to read it and take everything literally. the reason we have so much bad press is because of a hand full of extremists who without any qualification feel they have the right to derive rulings and judgments from the quran.
like i stated in an earlier post, i would advise every muslim and non muslim alike to study or read about a group of people who appeared after the prophet mohammed passed away called the khawarij, these people and many jihadist of today resemble each other, the khawarij were cursed.. its defo something i would advise you read about because when you do come across an extremist you will be able to identify them very easy.
Np19: iam going to give you an example of what the khawarij would do
Purported Al Qaeda Video Shows Prisoners Burned Alive
Al Qaeda's (Allegedly al-Qaeda) latest display of terror has made its way onto the Internet, showing horrifying images of what appear to be prisoners in Iraq being doused with an inflammatory liquid and then burned alive.
The video, which appears to have been posted first on Google last December in an alleged anti-Al Qaeda Web film, shows five insurgents standing behind three blindfolded prisoners kneeling at the edge of a burning pit.
"And now that we have captured these scums who committed this dreadful crime, we will burn them with this fire," the Al Qaeda leader says in Arabic. "The same fire which they committed their crime with.
"And I swear by God almighty that, I swear by God almighty that we will have no mercy on them," he continues. "Allahuakbar, Allahuakbar."
As he speaks, two of the insurgents pour liquid on the blindfolded prisoners. Then they push the bound men into the pit, where they are engulfed in flames.
THE REASON I POSTED THIS IS TO SHOW WHAT A SO CALLED JIHADIST WHO BARES THE SIGNS OF THE KHAWARIJ WOULD DO... THE ABOVE IS ABSOLOUTLEY PROHIBITED IN ISLAM IT IS NOT ALLOWED UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TO BURN ANY HUMAN ALIVE IT IS A GRAVE SIN AND ONE WILL BE PUNISHED FOR THIS.
THE KHAWARIJ ARE BACK ON THE RISE AND THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT I QUOTE 'NOT' MUSLIMS
Np19: mohammed (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said: “In the last days of this world there will appear some young foolish people who will use the best speech of all people (i.e. the Quran), but they will abandon Islam as an arrow going through the game. Their belief will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have practically no belief), so wherever you meet them, kill them, for he who kills them shall get a reward on the Day of Resurrection.” [Sahih Bukhari]
This hadith is about the Khawarij. They used to recite the Quran so much that its recitation could be heard from a distance away from their camps. They prayed much and lived very simply but the Prophet (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said about them that they would be the dogs of the inmates of Hell. This is because they would apply the verse of the Quran meant for the non-Muslims to the Muslims. They would interpret verses of the Quran out of context and they made the blood of the Muslims and innocent people lawful for themselves and for boasting among themselves. They were part of the first tribualtion of the Muslim nation.
The Khawarij are not limited to the time of the first century of Islam. Other ahadith indicate that people who have these characteristics will arise time and again throughout the life of this Ummah. Some Muslims find the blood of other Muslims lawful these days too, and either target Muslims with their weapons directly, or facilitate the non-Muslims in their war against Muslims and kill innocent people and non combatants alike. Present day Khawarij have set bounties on the heads of people, and on top of that boast about their capture.
braveheart32: @asassin_khan:Groups who distort scriptures are found in every religion.Unfortunately they have been able to disguise themseves very cleverly using islam.The khawarij are indeed here and they are making it difficult for people to be patient with true muslims.I just hope genuine, peace loving muslims would eventually be able to prevail and turn the paths of those young muslims who are caught in the plot of these extremist
Np19: i hope so too for the sake of peace, amongst the muslim comminty especially in the west they are a problem and they are on the rise. but there are many great scholars who are refuting them and making people ware of who they are. in the u.k there are many groups and they are very good at disguising themselves.
anyway in the end they will meet their lord and they will be held accountable for the destruction they have caused. in the meantime muslims need to ensure they are studying from a learned scholars and any information they are given they need to run it by someone who is well versed in religion. They also need to learn the charcteristics of the khawarij and when they know their signs they will be able to know who to stay away from. sadly not many muslims are even aware of who and what the khawarij are.
RahGuzaR: Assasin Khan I feel proud of you that we still have people like you who are always willing to show the real picture of Islam to every one that includes those muslims who have been misleaded by the wrong interpretation of Islam.
I feel really good for i can see that atleast one person got convinced cuz of the this argument.
Keep it up brauv, we need more people like you !!
I've read your posts. If you truly believe in what you say, if you truly believe that their are those that also believe as you do, you folks are not making a dent into the hate of those who want the destruction of non-believers worlwide. The passage I posted is from the Hamas Charter. In their charter are other hateful passages yet 'we' do not hear from those like you condemning in public, in all languages, your condemnations. In reality, the Palestinians democratically voted Hamas into power because of these types of beliefs.
Np19: DAVIDK14 i think its an issue of courage, what you find is if you speak out against any of their ideologies then the likelyhood is that you will get killed. This is why you find alot of people will refrain from speaking on the issue because they fear for their lives. this once again is the trait of the Khawarij, if you disagree with what they say then you automatically become an apostate and therefore they feel your blood needs to be drawn.
there are alot of scholars in the west who are speaking out against them. the videos i posted above are of a very famous and highly educated scholar who speaks out against them and their ideologies, in pakistan his life is always in danger and many attempts have been made to kill him, but he has found the courage and alot of peoples eyes have been opened by him as he will refute these groups from the quran and traditions, he also exposes how they misinterpret verses etc to fool people into believeing they are doing gods work.
Np19: you fight those who fight you, you do not kill the women the kids the innocent the non combatants the old the priests the traders the trees etc. if anyone does any of the above then know they are truley misguided and they have made a grave error that they will pay for on the day of reckoning.
Np19: in regards to why people voted them, then thats the people of those lands that will have to answer that, alot of the times especially in the east where alot of people are uneducated i doubt anyone actually reads the manifesto's of these groups, im not sure what incesntive they were given to vote for them.
cuarl: Why dont you "real" muslims take more action to denounce these people that totally abuses your own religion and make it look very very bad. You guys should be in the first to condemn actions of taliban and extremist. I hear that some of your leaders do sometimes yes, but its not very strong
Np19: cuarl like i said its about courage. the issue is in the east you dont get 5 star security and if they want to kill you they easily can, i think its a case of them finding it within themselves to want to scarifice themselves for the truth. the good thing is that alot of scholars in the west are now speaking out against them as they do have a higher level of security in the uk europe the states etc.
im aware that in europe and the uk there is many debates in the mosques on this issue which alot of youth attend, this is the best place for them to learn from scholars. iam also aware that alot of people dennounce these ideologies but unfortunatley some endorse it. its a battle of ideologies at the moment all we can do is confront these people where we can and debate the issues with them.
I have made a statement in the past, many, many times:
If 99.9% of all Muslims on the planet of approximately 1 billion are peace loving people and 1/10th of 1 % are the fundamentalist extremists, why can't the 99.9% reign them in? These 1/10th of one percent are the troublemakers and need to be dealt with by Muslims and not western societies as we are right now. Yes, these 'terrorists' are going to fight you but why should western societies spend their blood and treasure to combat these radicals?
Can you elaborate please?