Workers rights stripped in Wisconsin. (Page 9)

davidk14: Outback,

Man you are really out there in the outback. You blok's have TP or just use sticks and leaves?

chronology: David. In the Northern Territories, most of the Bars make the Pioneer Saloon look tame. You would need Outback to keep you from getting lynched with your views on Unions and Health-care etc. They are gentlemen there tho. Before they head-but you, they will take your false teeth out of your mouth and put them on the Bar.

Tink: Jack, in the case of your co-worker whom wife passed and he hit the bottle.

If that same situation had happened here, he simply would have applied for FMLA (Family Medical Leave Act) if he wished to go to treatment and get all straightened out. Union or NO union. It is the law here.

Those are not the "drunk" cases I am talking about though. I am talking about the chronic alcoholic that can't and doesn't want to go to treatment. The only reason they go to treatment is because the union is telling them that they have to if they want to keep their job. So they go to treatment and then a year later they go to treatment and then a year later and on and on. I worked with people like this.

I also worked with people who maintained a 66% attendance average. The union contract stated that as long as their attendance did not fall below 65% they were "safe"

I think it is pathetic to have that kind of job security where you can play the system like that. It is simply wrong.

NOW, I have no idea what the contracts state for the public sector employees of Wisconsin BUT if they are even remotely comparative to the union contract my union held, don't you think that is pathetic?

I personally don't see a place for unions within the United States anymore. I just don't. We have laws to protect employee rights, all employees and it doesn't matter if you are union or non union.

Malobear: Chrono,you write like you have experienced this yourself. Mustve been painful.

chronology: lol. Malo, it came close. I made the mistake of objecting to the treatment of Aborigines and almost got punched in the face; 'if you like those f@ckin people so much, why don't you f@ckoff down the road and drink with them, now f@ckoff out of my face', was the no nonsense reply.

Malo, Aussies do not mix their words.

And if I was ever in the Pioneer Saloon, I would keep my opinions to myself, and only speak when spoken to. I have had a damn fine 'Aussie education'.

Outbackjack: Tink if you feel that unions have no place in the U.S then good luck to you.You only have to look at the decline in wages since Reaganomics to see the damage done.Personally it is my participation in Trade unions which has allowed me to have a good standard of living,Training that has allowed me to become self employed and my own little hobby farm and other land holdings.The fact that we were the highest paid in the industry(by as much as 40% in some cases) allowed all this to happen.I remember when I used to go to the pub and laugh at the idiots who whinged about unions.Especially when I heard how much less they earned than me.

I am not as far out as you think David and someone discovered flintstone recently so cooking became a whole lot easier.

Unfortunately some pubs are pretty rough like that but things do vary from place to place.Kalgoorlie isnt as wild as it used to be but there are still some wild towns like Fitzroy crossing around.You still hear stories of cranky miners communicating with their handles(beer glasses) by slamming it upside down on the main bar.This means they want to fight the whole pub.I still laugh at that scene in the movie Australia where Hugh Jackman does it and the hilarious stereotypes of an Australian pub.

Tink: Jack, as far as I am concerned they don't have a place. I don't see how the union benifits hard working people.

I have worked with a union contract and honestly when I left the union (through lay off) and found new employeement doing the same work, I made much more money. I made almost $20,000 a year more money. Wanna know why?

I made more money because I was given raises based on my performance. I am a damn hard worker and there are employeers out there that recoginzie and award outstanding performance with high raises. A person just has to apply themselves and look for them.

NOW lets look at both as I was laid off from both.

While I was employed with the NON union company this is what I received;

My NON union company paid for my medical entirely, part of my spouses, part of my sons. I received 2 weeks of vacation from the very first day I started (people with 10 years plus received 6 weeks) I received (1) sick day each month and if I didn't use it, they cut me a check at the end of the year. I was paid for all national holidays and the employer matched my contribution to my 401K (dollar for dollar), they offered flex plan, short term and long term disability and carried my life insurance policy.

When I was laid off, I received three weeks of pay for each year of service, plus all my accrued vacation. I received almost an entire years wage.

My union company;

I paid for my medical and my son's, I received 1 week of vacation (people with 15 years plus received 6 weeks), 1/2 sick day per month (use it or lose it), paid holidays. They did NOT match my 401K, and they took union dues out of each paycheck.

Do you want to know what I received from my union job when they closed 8 plants and moved our jobs overseas...NOTHING.

Sorry, but my opinions are based on my own union experience (just like your are)

chronology: Tink. Believe me you are not alone in seeing your quality of work contract go down. A guy was saying how he used to live in London working on Construction Sites as a laborer for 30 Dollars an hour, (no holiday pay, sick pay or anything else). Now when he goes looking for work, every job is minimum wage.

A Tradesman was telling me only last week how he used to earn 40 Dollars an hour 10 years ago (again with no holiday pay etc). Now he makes just 20 Dollars an hour. At another factory, workers were laid off from jobs that paid 20 Dollars an hour doing machine work, they were offered other jobs paying 10 Dollars an hour. City workers had their pay cut from 15 Dollars an hour to 12 Dollars an hour because a committee judged they were being paid 'too much'.

Tink, this is happening everywhere, not a lot Unions can do to stop the trend. But things would be worse without Unions.

Tink: I don't believe it would be worse without unions.

Right now it is an "Employers Market"

A few years ago it was an "Employee Market"

It will change again, it will take time and for the economy to come back around BUT it will change again.

I never had any issues finding a job. When I got into the union 15 years ago I thought it was great. I was young and I had my whole life to save. My grandfather, my father, my mother, my aunt where all part of the same union, the same company. My grandfather retired from that company as did my mother. The union was different back then. BUT times changed and so did the unions (in my opinion)

BUT nothing, not even the union could stop them from closing plants and sending jobs overseas.

So, once again I found myself looking for work and starting back over at $11 an hour. BUT, that is where I learned the big difference between union and non union shops.

I realized that working for a NON union shop I could out perform my co-workers and be rewarded for doing such. I worked my way up the ladder all the way into management and doubled my starting pay within 3 years. On top of that I made commission and I average 22% of my gross pay. See, if my employees performed well under my management then not only was I rewarded BUT they also received the same 22% commission that I received (based on their gross pay) It was a win, win for everyone and we worked as a team.

I learned something there (with the NON union company) I learned about team work. Team work (in my opinion) is NOT what a union is about. They have no motivation to do better, I always knew what my raise was going to be (even before I got it) as it was spelled out in the union contract.

I will never work for another union, not ever.

chronology: Tink, interesting Post. I have listened to many Americans say the same. If it is any consolation, everything you have said happened to you has happened to millions of people here as well. It is a worldwide trend. Few people here expect anything to improve tho, you say it will improve in the U.S.? Well let's all hope so.

davidk14: .

When I lived in California, many years ago, I was a young restaurant general manager in a hotel. This hotel was union. The Restaurant Workers Union covered the cooks, food servers, and housekeepers. The AFL-CIO covered the front desk people.

One day, the AFL-CIO went on strike for the “10” front desk people. The AFL-CIO “told” the restaurant union to support their strike. The restaurant union obliged and told the hundreds of cooks, servers and housekeepers to go on strike. The hotel management asked if a vote had taken place by the restaurant union employees and the answer was no. The restaurant union members never took a vote therefore this was an illegal strike.

Picket lines were set up by the AFL-CIO not with the “10” front desk people, but with people who were bused in by the dozens… “Professional Strikers”. The picket line “walkers” were, to save time, I’m calling them “thugs”.

The hotel management told the restaurant union employees to report to work since it was an illegal strike. Many if not most did cross the line. After a few days of this, the “strikers” became violent banging on cars, threatened violence and spitting on restaurant union people. These people decided not to return to work. The hotel management sent out letters to all employees saying that if they did not return to work, they would be fired. Because of the intimidation of the “strikers” who were walking the line for “10” people, every one of the restaurant union workers were fired.

Hundreds of people lost their jobs.

The hotel brought in management from dozens of other properties to keep this hotel up and running.

Months later, the “10” front desk people and hotel management settled…they got a $ .50 raise. By this time, an all new hotel staff of cooks, servers and housekeepers was hired…all non-union.

During these months, we lived in the hotel where the 30th floor was secured for hotel management to live because of the threats of violence. We were for all intent and purposes, we feared for our lives.

After this strike was settled, we decided to move to a state which was a right to work state. No unions ever again. That was many years ago and to this day, I will never forget the violence, the intimidation, and the threats of the AFL-CIO.

.

chronology: David ........ So Unions are the problem?

In 2003 Unite Here members were called into a meeting with the Congress Hotel management in Chicago who told them their Health Care Benefits were being cancelled, their wages would be frozen until 2010, and the Hotel would use outside subcontractors to replace many Union members jobs.

Now David, can you possibly guess what the Union members reaction was?

davidk14: .

I was re-calling my personal experiences.

Regarding your comment, I was taught to underpromise and overdeliver.

Overpromising and underdelivering causes the problem almost everytime whether in business or in personal life experiences.

.

chronology: David. You are being very 'Zen' tonight. Then again it is 1 in the a.m. where you are. Guess you must be looking out at the Phoenix night from your Garden lounger and reflecting on your past or something. One thing Americans take for granted is the spectacular views they often have from their homes. One person was saying how they ended most days watching the sunset change the colour of a mountain range in Utah; 'that's Trippy', is all I could think.

Tink: I think our personal experiences in life is what causes our opinions to form. I think for us to understand where each of us is coming from it is important to share why we feel the way we do, how we came to believe what we do.

I think this is important in any debate.

That is why I share my personal experiences. People may not agree with my opinion (in any given topic) BUT at least they can see why and how I came to form the opinions I have.

Jack shared why he supports the union, I shared why I don't and now David has shared his own experience.

Chrono, do you have any personal experience? (either way)

chronology: Tink, gee you are sounding pretty 'Zen' like David. Must be some beautiful sunsets in the States now making you all philosophical. I just think life is a funny thing that happens to you on the way to the grave. But any way you look at it, you need to turn attitudes around now in the States. You and David both disagree, but Unions have been part of the movement that improved life for working people in America, White collar as well as Blue collar. Medical Insurance needs to be more accessible for all Americans not just for the well heeled and people who work for Big Corporations. Americans have much to proud of, Health Care and better working conditions could be among your achievements.

Tink: Breaking News (just in)


MADISON, Wisconsin — A judge has issued a temporary restraining order blocking Wisconsin's new and contentious collective bargaining law from taking effect.

Dane County Judge Maryann Sumi issued the order Friday to temporarily block the law as District Attorney Ismael Ozanne, a Democrat, had requested.

Ozanne filed a lawsuit contending that a legislative committee that broke a stalemate that had kept the law in limbo for weeks met without the 24-hour notice required by the Midwestern state's open meetings law.

The Republican-controlled Legislature passed the measure and Gov. Scott Walker signed it last week.

A spokesman for Republican Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald declined to comment, citing the legal fight. Messages left for comment with Walker's spokesmen, as well as Democratic legislative leaders, were not immediately returned.

Associated Press 3/18/2011

Wampum6: Perhaps the judge might be described as an activist judge, and possibly a pawn. It will be interesting to see how all of this develops.

LiptonCambell: >>>You and David both disagree, but Unions have been part of the movement that improved life for working people in America, White collar as well as Blue collar.

I disagree. If they are part of the contributing factors that are bringing about the shift from factories in the States to overseas, then they are have quite a negative impact on the lifestyles of Americans. Sure, a factory that pays for your health care certainly is a positive influence for the short term- but not if it drives business's and jobs away.

>>>Medical Insurance needs to be more accessible for all Americans not just for the well heeled and people who work for Big Corporations.

And if a business cannot afford these benefits to their employees? What then?

Wampum6: It's thought by a significant number of USA citizens that the Canadian way isn't the way to go for healthcare. On the other hand, there are some who are unopposed to the Canadian concept and carrying out of their plan.

LiptonCambell: Lmao ask the Canadian Tax Payers how Universal Healthcare is workin' out; We're bleeding ourselves dry with all the spending(Ha! What an awesomely apt analogy!)- not to mention the "brain drain" Canada experiences, since our best and brightest doctors move to where the money is- I remember some years ago a nearby city was offering to pay for the entire schooling for doctors, so long as they sign a contract agreeing to be a local family doctor for ten years after graduating.

Outbackjack: Tink, you are entitled to share your opinions here.I have no problem with that.I do think its sad that (even though you are a hard worker) you basically did someone out of a job technically by outperforming your coworkers.

McLipton,pull your head out of your arse.Union or not those jobs would go offshore regardless.Afterall who in the Western world can compete with a Chinese labourer who earns $5 a day?

I have worked on some of the hardest minesites,building sites and engineering workshops you could imagine.I have worked for some of the biggest corporations in the world including the American owned Bechtel.
Without trade unions those corporate arseholes would have run us into the ground and I am quite proud of the fact that we screwed those bastards for all we could.

Nobody has commented on the fact that the big corporations are getting a huge tax cut out of this "deal" in Wisconsin.

Funny that.

Anyone dare to comment or defend that?

Tink: Jack, I don't feel I did anyone out of a job. I worked hard for the position I held and anyone of my coworkers could have striven for the same thing. However, they chose not too.

As for the claim of "big corporations getting huge tax cuts" I will have to do some research on that. Not really understanding how big business is going to be getting tax breaks, but you know I am always willing to learn about something.

As for the "deal" taking place, it hasn't yet. Here is the latest update that I found.

Madison, Wis.— The month long saga over Gov. Scott Walker's plan to drastically curb collective bargaining rights for public workers in Wisconsin took a turn Friday that could force a dramatic rebooting of the entire legislative process.

A judge temporarily blocked the law from taking effect, raising the possibility that the Legislature may have to vote again to pass the bill that attracted protests as large as 85,000 people, motivated Senate Democrats to escape to Illinois for three weeks and made Wisconsin the focus of the national fight over union rights.

But Walker's spokesman and Republican legislative leaders indicated they would press on with the court battle rather than consider passing the bill again. "We fully expect an appeals court will find that the Legislature followed the law perfectly and likely find that today's ruling was a significant overreach," Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald and his brother, Assembly Speaker Jeff Fitzgerald, said in a statement. "We highly doubt a Dane County judge has the authority to tell the Legislature how to carry out its constitutional duty."

Dane County District Judge Maryann Sumi granted the temporary restraining order in response to a lawsuit filed by the local Democratic district attorney, alleging that Republican lawmakers violated the state's open meetings law by hastily convening a special committee before the Senate passed the bill.

Sumi said her ruling would not prevent the Legislature from reconvening the committee with proper notice and passing the bill again.

Associated Press (March 19. 2011)

Wampum6: Jack. It makes no sense at all for you to suggest that Tink took a job from another worker, or maybe more over time, because of the superior quality of her performance. She earned that job because of her performance, along with the available pay, benefits and respect of her superiors. That's the way it should be, not a system of favoritism and cronyism that many unions create and perpetuate. The workforce needs more actions and performance like Tink has provided. And, when an individual outperforms others, that individual should succeed. Life is a little bit like a race----to the victor belongs the spoils, but with training and honest to goodness team building, more winners will come along. Nobody should succeed by doing little or nothing of good note. The cream should rise to the top like Tink and others typify!

chronology: Tink. Last year Governor Walker handed out 140 million Dollars in Tax Breaks to Corporations in Wisconsin. That placed the State Budget in the Red Ink to the tune of 137 million Dollars. State employees are facing Wage cuts, Pension cuts and Health Care Insurance hikes to cover the deficit. Go figure.