Workers rights stripped in Wisconsin. (Page 5)
the real slim DEEPy: i hate to jump on the beck bandwagon, but he claims that Van Jones (a self described communist) has been working with the AFL-CIO in organizing the national union rallies of the past few weeks. im not gonna look up the exact details, cause i dont pay that much attentioon to beck, but the allegations are there, and van jones is for real, bacause he stepped down from being Obama's green job czar as soon as the word got out that there was a "communist in the white house", and went straight to work for Opama's pet non-profit, the Joyce Foundation- how convenient.
ok, enuf of the kool-aide.
the around 700 billion bail out package to the big banks was Obamas idea to inject money into the economy, and, thus create inflation and, whalla- jobs!!! the bail-outs were LOANS, and they had strings attached, certain condidtions of governmental control had to be met. this is corperatism (neo-facism) at its best. control the coorperations with regulation form above and the thereat of union uprising from below. this is exactly how the war machines of WWII were created. only, it didnt work- perhaps because the banks were too eager to un-leverage themselves, and not willing to make any MORE risky loans than acorn had already twisted their arm into making. yes, i said acorn, the non-profit community organization operation that was essential in the obama voter registration drive. see my "causes for the sub-prime collapse" thread in the poolitics forum for further details. many were outraged when government bail-out loans went to pay bonuses to execs but, you know what, thats opbamas fault. any decent creditor closely examines the borrowers financial obligations before closing the loan, all except our liberal administration...
the bail-outs and the unions are on the same team, in case you havent noticed. the bail outs to the banks were not to benefit the banks, but to prime the ecomnomy and keep the wheels spinning, because, according to liberals, throwing money at a stalled economy lubes the gears... obama's economic advisors actually told him to give the bail-out mooney away in the form of food stamps to create maximum inflation, but obama saw what the Brits did, and decided that it was better to loan the money out than to give it away, thank goodness, cause it would have only caused inflation in food proces, if he had listened to his keneysian advisors.
more bail out money went to gm and chrysler, to keep american union workers empolyed. they went bankrupt anyway, and the bail out money was used to ensure that the bankrupcy reorginizations would not cost the vaulable union voters a single penny of their pensions, and screw the tax paying stockholders, when the stockholders were actually first, legally, to have dibs in the reorganization. no wonder no one wants to invest in the stock market, obama burned them just like how acorn burned the banks.
then, the rest of the bail outs went to fund shortfalls in the states, which is why we have to balance state budgets now- we dont get the bail out this year that we got in that fiscal year. instead of making the hard chioces then, and cutting costs then, we used bonus money to keep ths states afloat, and the public union workers still got their "cost of living" raises, even though we were operating out of "bonus cash" that would never be seen in future fiscal years.
wall street quickly paid their "bail-out's" back, and the automakers borrowed money from another federal fund so that they could say that they paid their bail out back. the bail outs were paid back quickly because the exessive government control of the companies was not in the companies' best interests.
control with regulation from aqbove, and threat of union uprising form below, thats the official facist way.
yes, stop the bail outs, but understand that the bail-outs and the unions are on the same team.
The money is gone. The states are broke. The dollar is devaluing. The world bank is seriously considering removing the dollar as the world reserve currency. What the world is looking for is the United States to become solvent again. It cannot do this by deficit spending. Even a fifth grade lobotomized student understands this. Your last post is fear mongering. The world is looking for the US to lead, not to continue in the direction that it is currently going.
The USS America sees the iceberg but the rutter was constructed too small. Does the USS America take the iceberg on head on or take the easy course to try and side swipe the iceberg knowing that the bulk of the iceberg is hidden underwater? We have seen from knee jerk reactions of the damage that can happen in sideswiping the berg. Take the berg head on. Yes, there will be damage, but the ship won’t sink.
the real slim DEEPy: sub prime collapse thread, detailing acorns involvement- http://www.wireclub.com/Forums/ViewTopic.aspx?ForumId=772986&ParentId=997005&Replied=40
and it also occurs to me that if the wisconson wirkers got their cost of living raises for the past 2 years, all we are asking them to give up are those increases from just the past 2 years. we are simply asking them to go back to the levels before the collapse, while much of america is MUCH WORSE than before the collapse. we are adking them to give up the ill-gotten raises given in a time of treasury short falls and desperate use of bail-out funds to keep the states afloat. we areasking them to give back 2 raises they should not have gotten, bacuause the states were hanging by a thread financially at the time, and still are. who gets raises when their employers are hehmoraging hundreds of thousands? who in their right minds asks for raises at such a time? who else, but priveledged unions...
chronology: Deep, with respect, what do you mean by 'workers'. Many American Civil Servants work at jobs where they could get higher pay elsewhere, they work for their Government because they love their country. A mathematician could probably earn more in another business than he could earn working for Wisconsin, so could many engineers, teachers, etc. You seem to portray American Civil Servants as loafers who are of no value. The fact is, their skills have wage rates that are often far higher elsewhere. If you pay your professional Government employees peanuts, however much they care about their country, sooner or later they will be 'headhunted' by outside businesses. A man was talking on the radio over here about his job. His job was a full time 'talent scoute' for Banks and other Businesses, all he did was drive around the U.S. trying to talk American workers into leaving their job and going onto Global Employment Rigisters.
the real slim DEEPy: public sector workers make an average of $20,000 more than the average private sector employee. i dont call that "peanuts"
Wampum6: You should write a book on logic and reason, Chrono. But don't plan on retirement from the earnings on the sales, maybe three books!
chronology: Wampum. What are you babbling about now?; 'logic' 'reason' what has that got to do with 'comparison' and 'assessment' of comparable wage rates? Are you 10 years old?
Wisconsin Senate GOP Votes to Strip State Workers of Collective Bargaining Rights
Published March 09, 2011
Bypassing Democrats hiding out in Illinois, Wisconsin Senate Republicans voted Wednesday night to strip state workers of their collective bargaining rights.
Republicans voted 18-1 to pass the stripped-down budget bill in a hastily arranged meeting. None of the Senate Democrats were present.
The State Assembly is expected to vote on the bill Thursday.
All 14 Senate Democrats fled to Illinois nearly three weeks ago, preventing the chamber from having enough members present to consider Gov. Scott Walker's so-called "budget repair bill" -- a proposal introduced to plug a $137 million budget shortfall..
The Senate requires a quorum to take up any measures that spend money. But Republicans on Wednesday split from the legislation the proposal to curtail union rights, and a special conference committee of state lawmakers approved that bill a short time later.
Wisconsin Senate Democratic leader Mark Miller said Wednesday Democrats will "join the people of Wisconsin in taking back their government," but he refused to say when.
The lone Democrat present on the conference committee, Rep. Tony Barca, shouted that the surprise meeting was a violation of the state's open meetings law but Republicans voted over his objections. The Senate then convened within minutes and passed it without discussion or debate.
Spectators in the gallery screamed "You are cowards."
Before the sudden votes, Democratic Sens. Bob Jauch said if Republicans "chose to ram this bill through in this fashion, it will be to their political peril. They're changing the rules. They will inflame a very frustrated public."
Walker praised the legislative action.
"The Senate Democrats have had three weeks to debate this bill and were offered repeated opportunities to come home, which they refused," he said in a statement.
"In order to move the state forward, I applaud the Legislature's action today to stand up to the status quo and take a step in the right direction to balance the budget and reform the government," he said. "The action today will help ensure Wisconsin has a business climate that allows the private sector to create 250,000 new jobs."
State Senate Democratic Minority Leader Mark Miller issued a statement saying, "Tomorrow we will join the people of Wisconsin in taking back their government."
chronology: David ......... So cutting the wages of State Employees in Wisconsin will create 240000 Jobs?
Across the entire United States only 194000 none farm jobs have been created between Dec 2009 and March 4 this year. Can you tell us all how Wisconsin will perform this 'Water into Wine'?
The biggest employer in Wisconsin is Wal-Mart. They must be planning a hell of an expansion.
LiptonCambell: I'm curious Jack and Chron- clearly the state of Wisconsin is attempting to get in the green with their debt, and this is a part of it;
If the state of Wisconsin backs down on their actions here; where should they cut down?
chronology: Lipton. Depends on just what sort of a future Wisconsin has. Lipton, am not anti-business and not as Left Wing as Jack. There may be no future for Wisconsin, like there is no future for much of England's old Industrial Regions. Those regions are dead, no one wants to admit this, they just keep pumping welfare money into them, when they should be telling people if they want to have families and amenities they should move to where the jobs are, in short, they are not going to be warehoused on welfare for ever.
In Wisconsin there may be only a temporary dip in the economy, in which case you just keep the same State Wage contract and wait for business to pick up. But if it looks like Wisconsin is as dead as England's Rust Belt is, then folks just need to be encouraged to move away over the decades and leave. There is no need to turn the towns into Sweatshops. I understand people are sentimental about Milwaukee, Manchester, Sheffield, Liverpool, Bradford etc, but hey, you have a choice. Either become cheap labour sweatshops with no Public Services, or encourage people to move to New York, L.A. (or in England, London, Birmingham, or move to France or Germany where they still have a future). There is no justice in blaming workers for the fact that business has move away from their towns, they just have to move with it. But who knows? Milwaukee may have a future.
David is proof that moving works. He left San Fran and went to Phoenix. He has never looked back. Millions of people have moved on from England in the last two decades, and few of them would come back if you paid them to.
LiptonCambell: >>>But if it looks like Wisconsin is as dead as England's Rust Belt is, then folks just need to be encouraged to move away over the decades and leave.
Is it that simple? I mean, if you have a factory position, mortgage a house, start raising the 2.5 kids family, and then get laid off from the factory position, what can you really do? You have debts that must be paid off before you move, and if people are abandon ing Wisconsin means that finding a buyer would be difficult, and breaking even would be damn near impossible
>>>There is no justice in blaming workers for the fact that business has move away from their towns, they just have to move with it.
I disagree; certainly there was a reason for the company to move. And while I won't generalize and say "every time its because of unions", sometimes, yes, it is. And under those circumstances, it is indeed the unionized workers fault. And losing a large plant, especially in smaller cities and towns, can have a vicious effect on the local economy- effecting far more people than just the union employees.
Still, you never answered the key question; Wisconsin is in debt. What alternatives do you suggest that will help their debt problem? I mean, if I can't afford my power bill, I turn off a few lights.
Malobear: If you want to see how that effects a town or city. Just look at what happened to the towns and cities that had military bases and Clinton closed them down. The closings effected everyone and from miles around.
chronology: Lipton. Good point, some Unions have developed a bad relationship with Business, and as a result Business avoids the area. But those are a tiny minority in the scheme of Business.
But in over 95pc of Businesses leaving a Town it is because of changes in Global Business. The manufacturing base of the world now is in China, and will probably remain so. Americans are going to have to readjust to this. But Americans are robust, hardy people. Anyone who has read 'The Grapes of Wrath' knows that.
You ask if it 'is that easy to just move on'. Well record numbers of Britains are doing that each year. And personal debt is worse in Britain than the U.S. But fair enough, Americans have more keeping them in their hometowns than Britons. Who have few if any bonds to a Town.
Thought I did answer your question Lipton. But 'Natural Wastage', will save money. As staff leave or retire, they are not replaced for the time being. This saves cutting wages, but does mean more work for the staff. Again, there is no getting away from the fact, that if there is no Business in the area hiring, then it becomes irrational to keep building schools, hospitals, homes etc. What the hell for?
In Detroit, Michigan, there are hundreds of acres of empty neighborhoods. Block after block after block of abandoned homes and businesses. Ghost neighborhoods they're called. This is happening all over the country. Here in my state, there were neighborhood projects being built including infrastructure (police, fire, etc.) but never finished. They too now are ghost neighborhoods.
The writing is on the wall folks and the legislators in Wis. are trying as hard as they can so there neighborhoods don't become "ghost neighborhoods". Yet some call these legislators traitors to the Unions. An 8% decrease is better than a 100% decrease any day. The people of the state of Wisconsin voted these legislators in to office to make the hard decisions. It’s unfortunate many of the legislators left the state to Illinois over three weeks ago to avoid a vote. They may not be traitors to the citizens of Wisconsin, but cowards…perhaps. The legislature recently moved forward without the missing legislators and canceled the Union bargaining chip. Many other states are following suit because they must balance their budgets…and fast.
The stimulus money is gone and bills are coming due. In California, they have temporarily stopped paying vendors. These vendors have payrolls and bills to pay and they too are screwed if California does not fix their issues quickly. Wisconsin is facing a $3.6 billion dollar deficit next year. California already has a $20+ billion dollar deficit with unfunded liabilities of over $100 billion.
Is their hope? Always. However if gasoline continues to climb towards that magic $5 a gallon nationally, this slow recovery we are experiencing will stall out, says some economists. It’s already at $5 in some places of California, or so has been reported.
chronology: Gas prices really suck David. Like a guy said; 'America is a country that was built around the Motor Car'. It is a 'nation on wheels' so to speak. While Europe is built around bicycles and Buses.
I think you are missing the point of this thread Chrono. Here is an article regarding California and their now $26.6 billion dollar deficit. They are starting to try to cut spending but not enough to even dent the spending issues...Remember the Wisconsin "event" is addressing only a $3 billion deficit...
California's Brown Eliminates 'SWAG' as GOP Says Aim Higher
By Claudia Cowan
Published March 10, 2011
Famous for his frugality, California Gov. Jerry Brown has begun his third term with some bureaucratic spring cleaning and that includes -- among other things -- disconnecting thousands of taxpayer-funded cell phones.
"I'm opening every closet and door and pulling out the drawers and finding out what's there that shouldn't be there," Brown announced recently.
The move to ban taxpayer-paid cell phones is expected to save more than $20 million a year.
But Brown has also banned "stuff we all get," better known as SWAG -- those key chains, cups and other promotional knickknacks given away by almost every state agency. According to the governor's office, between 2007 and 2010, agency freebies cost taxpayers $7.5 million.
Several items of SWAG were on display during a recent event in Sacramento. While the tote bags and mugs might be useful to some, the purpose of the inch-tall, bright red safety cones, given away by Cal-Trans, may serve less purpose.
Also in question was the wisdom of the "go paperless" message from the State Franchise Tax Board, printed, as it was, on a sturdy piece of paper. The small Chives Grow Kit really missed the mark, especially since it didn't say which agency handed it out.
Some Republicans say Brown is missing the mark, because, they contend, these kinds of symbolic cuts won't do anything to improve the state's financial health or close its $26.6 billion deficit.
Republican Assemblyman Jim Neilson, vice chairman of the Assembly Budget Committee, says Brown needs to tackle bigger issues facing the state, like school and pension reform, and take on the special interests to downsize government and make California more business friendly.
"Highlight the onerous regulations, governor," says Neilson. "Come out and announce you are going to review all the regulations that have a negative impact on jobs and the economy."
Analysts say Brown is using a chisel rather than an axe to pave the way for tough calls down the road.
Brown is sending a message that in these tough times, everyone needs to share the pain, said Fox News contributor Susan Estrich, "and if we're taking cuts on some of these symbolic items, next week, when we have to sit down with you, or next month, you're going to have to take some cuts too."
Brown had set a Thursday deadline for state lawmakers to agree to call a June special election so voters can decide whether to extend three expiring tax increases for another five years. Voter approval means increases on income, sales and car taxes would bring more than $9 billion a year into the state's treasury.
Votes in the Legislature to hold that election weren't there, and without those tax extensions, Brown had warned that California faces an "all-cuts" solution -- somewhere around $25 billion in cuts.
In a late announcement Wednesday evening, Brown's office said that following "positive and productive" budget talks between the governor and lawmakers on both sides of the aisle, a vote on the budget was to be delayed "in order to allow more time to find common ground and to put the state's finances back in balance."
the real slim DEEPy: tax increases are terrible on the economy, according to both conservative AND liberal economists. cutting spending is bad to liberals, but not to republicans. so, do the thing that everyone hates to spite the conservatives for at least having 1 good idea- the obvious solution of tightening our belts?
LiptonCambell: Yea, I think the "let the state rot" solution is not all that practical. Especially for elected officials. Also, it doesn't help the budget at all. Cutbacks have to be made.
the real slim DEEPy: seems that after they passed the union refferendum, the republican legislators began recieving death threats. whatever happened to this new "age of civility"?
franklin1950: look for talk of a state or even a nationwide strike .
a day or week or month of rage.
that would be interesting .
chronology: Franklin. The last thing America needs now is a Nationwide Strike. What is needed is more 'One Nation America' with Americans from all walks of life coming together to tackle the problems of unemployment, job security and creation, and Business preservation.
You know, I always remember the situation in Goldfield Nevada. The dispute there was bitter and protracted. The Mine owners won in the end, but the ill-will created meant the Industry never reached it's true potential. That was a loss for the Mine owners, America, and Nevada. So come on Yanks, pull together as a Team, and let's not hear talk of confrontation.
you sure do like to spout off what you think Americans need. You can't possible know what we need or don't need. You watch only what the media tells you. You don't live here. Have you ever lived here?